Over the weekend my husband ran into a neighbor and they got to talking about Measure B. Now, as an aside, I generally try to avoid the conversation of Measure B with my neighbors if I can at all help it because I don’t want folks to think I am pushing my political beliefs on them, particularly if it’s a casual chance encounter. Anyway, the neighbor remarked to my husband that he wasn’t quite sure — even after reading my blog — of my position on Measure B. Apparently I am doing a better job than even I thought, because I thought I was pretty clear that I was pro-Measure B, of being not so shrill about my support.
But just to declare the obvious, I am voting, or rather I have voted (absentee) for Measure B. Digression over
Isn’t it nice how far we have come from: “the Development Agreement is set in STONE, there is no way that it can be amended” to the now oft quoted City Attorney’s letter which says:
After the election (and assuming voter-approval), SunCal may amend the Development Agreement if it chooses to do so; however, SunCal will control whether and when it would seek such a amendment and it should not be assumed that any developer would voluntarily relinquish fiscal and other benefits gained from a voter-approved Initiative;
Inconsistent terms in any other negotiated agreement (such as a Disposition and Development Agreement, or “DDA”) may be required to be resolved in favor of the terms in the Development Agreement. Accordingly, although the City and SunCal could negotiate a DDA to mitigate the impacts identified in the Election Reports, SunCal also would have to amend the Development Agreement in order to assure consistency and enforceability a of any such negotiated terms.
Which essentially says, the Development Agreement can be amended after the election. But makes the grand caveat that says, “it should not be assumed that any developer would voluntarily relinquish fiscal and other benefits gained from a voter-approved Initiative.” It should also not be assumed that a developer wouldn’t voluntarily relinquish fiscal and other benefits gained if they are trying to act in, you know, good faith. And have a positive working relationship with a City that they will be in contract with for 25 years or more. Because we all know what they say about the word “assume…”
These sorts of statements are the ones that I find seriously obnoxious, it’s up there with the Mayor’s whole, “There are no guarantees that they will build any parks or schools or anything…ever!” See, it’s these sort of arguments that makes you think that the people proffering the argument think that you are seriously stupid or that a profit making business is seriously stupid. While, yes, assuming the worst case scenario SunCal could opt to just sit on the land that they will be responsible for cleaning up and making ready for vertical development, they don’t start recouping their investment and making a profit until they sell those entitlements to build vertically.
Or that a profit making business would stonewall (in the case the Initiative passes) and throw up their hands and say, “nuh uh, the voters said we could, screw having an amicable and pleasant relationship for the duration of our contract, we want to have a reputation of being completely unreasonable and difficult to work with.” See, unlike government, profit making businesses realize that they are not the only game in town and in order to get more business for the future they need to show that they can play well with others.
But these sorts of statements (“should not be assumed…” and “no guarantees”) just goes back to the whole issue of how good of negotiators our City Staff are, apparently they aren’t that great if the expectation is that everything should be set in stone prior to having to go to the table to work on where the real details are put into writing (the Development and Disposition Agreement (DDA)). Personally given the enormously capable individuals that are part of the City of Alameda, their bosses should have a bit more faith in their skillz than to discount their abilities to hold their own against SunCal or any other developer in order to finesse the best deal for Alameda.
Uh oh looks like somebody paid too much for a McMansion on the speculative end of town.
Comment by Mr. Simpleton — January 12, 2010 @ 8:22 am
1.
Uh oh, looks like someone from the bitter end of the island feels their power slipping west.
Comment by Jack Richard — January 12, 2010 @ 8:42 am
“…I generally try to avoid the conversation of Measure B with my neighbors if I can at all help it because I don’t want folks to think I am pushing my political beliefs on them, particularly if it’s a casual chance encounter.”
Should sent ’em to Pasta P Thurs. A few glasses of happy hours wine, declaring the obvious and they won’t need pushing. I’ve found that most people aren’t particularly interested in finding ulterior motives in what really is a simple decision. If you like the base as it is, vote no if you’d rather see it developed, vote yes.
Comment by Jack Richard — January 12, 2010 @ 8:55 am
“nuh uh, the voters said we could, screw having an amicable and pleasant relationship for the duration of our contract, we want to have a reputation of being completely unreasonable and difficult to work with.”
That pretty much sums up SunCal in the news, no?
Comment by AD — January 12, 2010 @ 9:04 am
Sorry guys, but from my experience having to work with developers here in Alameda for eight years, they were unpleasant, unreasonable, and difficult to work with.
Once they get their foot in the door, don’t bend over around them or you will regret it.
Comment by John Piziali — January 12, 2010 @ 9:44 am
I guess the bottom line is “let it just sit there and suck the city coffers dry–we don’t want no stinken development”
Comment by barbara kahn — January 12, 2010 @ 10:02 am
3 & 6
There’s always Door #3: Strike a better deal.
Comment by David Hart — January 12, 2010 @ 10:09 am
3, 5:
I respect John Piziali’s perspective re: developers, but have to defend Pat Keliher and SunCal for generally being more accurate and truthful than Measure B’s opponents (and, unfortunately, sometimes City officials whose assumptions are not justifiable). As a member of SunCal’s advisory committee, I promise you all that I intend to help Pat and SunCal follow through on all the promises they have made thus far to improve the revitalization’s overall benefits to the City of Alameda, improve oversight and approvals, and make sure that the revitalization of AP is revenue-neutral and does not increase traffic beyond the no-change option studied by the City.
(Due to City decisions re: the Council not placing Measure A amendments on the ballot, setting the election date, and changing the negotiating team’s composition, among other things, SunCal has not been able to negotiate these promises into legally binding agreements yet, despite their desire to do so.)
The Development Agreement in Measure B is, as has been stated repeatedly, a first major step towards revitalizing Alameda Point.
It is NOT the end of the redevelopment and approval process, nor is it the end of the world, even if it is imperfectly written at present. (And the DA can only be improved if Measure B is passed.)
I also applaud SunCal and Peter Calthorpe for coming up with a very “green” proposal for Alameda Point that actually is feasible and technically achievable.
As Jack Richard said, if you like the costly mess at Alameda Point as it is, vote no on B.
But if you want to improve and green Alameda’s economy, make sure the buildings and land at AP are cleaned up, restored, preserved, and repurposed, add significantly to our inadequate recreational facilities, improve our jobs-to-housing balance, and create a sustainable new community at Alameda Point, VOTE YES ON B.
Comment by Jon Spangler — January 12, 2010 @ 10:28 am
8
Truthful & accurate?
Two glaring exceptions come to mind, probably more if I think about for a while:
-I was told by several signature gatherers at more than one location on more than one date that the inititiative “has nothing to do with Measure A” or “does not affect MA” etc. That this occured a number of times suggests no mere footnote error but a deliberate falsehood, and on a most vital, central issue.
-Glosssies that talk about “making the developer pay” when a large portion of the financing scheme is taxpayer supported.
The anti-B side has certainly had its ERRORS — ordinary citizens often struggle with complex topics — but I can’t see any deliberate LIES from them. And in any case you are not associated w/ them but rather w/ Suncal, so on that basis I ask you to comment on the above two very significant mendacities. After reflection, would you still characterize your the Suncal campaign as “truthful & accurate?”
Comment by David Hart — January 12, 2010 @ 11:39 am
#8 – Truthful and accurate?
To add to David’s list… how about the swimming pool deception? You know… picture of swimming kid on the glossies and on front page of web site, but dig in and the swimming pool isn’t even in the plan.
I don’t think anybody in the aquatic community fell for that one, but we remember.
On the other hand… perhaps you can tell us what is not accurate and truthful at http://www.alamedapointinfo.com
Also… what ever happened to PRT?
Comment by Jack B. — January 12, 2010 @ 11:43 am
Jack B.: The swimming pool is still in the plan. There are two versions of the Sports Complex, one with swimming pool, one with additional soccer field which would move the location of the lacross/football field. This was an issue that JKW debunked a while back.
PRT was an idea that was kicked around at one of the early meetings by Peter Calthrope but would have been contingent on a much more dense (and therefore more populated) plan.
Comment by Lauren Do — January 12, 2010 @ 11:52 am
#8
“As a member of SunCal’s advisory committee, I promise you all that I intend to help Pat and SunCal follow through on all the promises they have made thus far to improve the revitalization’s overall benefits to the City of Alameda, improve oversight and approvals, and make sure that the revitalization of AP is revenue-neutral and does not increase traffic beyond the no-change option studied by the City.”
I don’t mean to be cruel, but I am going to be blunt.
Do you really believe that SunCal will continue to humor you after you are no longer of use to them? And what happens if SunCal flips the property? What will your status be once SunCal closes its office and leaves town? Step back and think about it. Of what use are you to them?
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — January 12, 2010 @ 11:55 am
Thanks, #8, for the write-up. Either your a Councilmember or an ex-Councilmember, or an expert who’ll know how to force SunCal to keep to its promise. Is that what you do, a professional lawyer? Thanks just the same.
Comment by townnewbie — January 12, 2010 @ 12:00 pm
Lauren, ask anyone in the swimming pools and they’ll tell you JKW’s debunking was debunked.
Comment by Jack B. — January 12, 2010 @ 12:12 pm
Lauren, if you are going to present that link add this one too:
http://johnknoxwhite.com/2009/06/04/alameda-point-the-affirmative-campaign-begins/
Comment by Jack B. — January 12, 2010 @ 12:17 pm
RAAAWRRR I AM EVIL AND GOING TO EAT YOUR BABIES GRARARRRARR
Comment by SUNCAL — January 12, 2010 @ 12:22 pm
#8: people only listen to lawyers these days. That’s your line of work I’m guessing. Because if you’re making a promise about getting SunCal to stay true to its promises, it would be helpful to know you’re line of work and background. Thanks.
Comment by townnewbie — January 12, 2010 @ 12:29 pm
Again, to #8. Follow this link:
http://www.alamedapointcommunity.com/tour/
Click on “Sports Complex Plan” and the one plan comes up. (don’t see a second). Note the swimming picture before you click. Look at the drawing. See blue #28? See the legend… says it’s basketball courts. Where’s the pool?
Accurate and truthful?
Comment by Jack B. — January 12, 2010 @ 12:30 pm
Seriously Jack? You’re basing your debunking of JKW’s debunking on one graphic on the website which says “Alternative 2”? Instead of the actual consultant’s report outlining the two alternative options for the Sports Complex?
Comment by Lauren Do — January 12, 2010 @ 12:36 pm
Lauren, you are telling me we are getting the pool of our dreams because it’s on an old consultant’s report?
Comment by Jack B. — January 12, 2010 @ 12:44 pm
Jon, can you fill us in on SunCal’s updated version of the swimming complex?
Comment by Jack B. — January 12, 2010 @ 12:57 pm
What I am saying is that the ultimate decision between Alternative 1 (pool) and Alternative 2 (no pool but extra soccer fields) lies in the laps of the Alameda Rec and Park Department.
The “old” consultant report is a recent revision of the 1997 Sports Complex report, I think it’s fair to call the 2008 report the “new” report.
Comment by Lauren Do — January 12, 2010 @ 1:00 pm
You must act now! This is your last chance! You have no other choice! You’ll never have another opportunity like this again! You have nothing to lose!
Click to access ScamsAndSwindles-NFA.pdf
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — January 12, 2010 @ 1:11 pm
Run! It’s SunCalzilla!
Comment by Lauren Do — January 12, 2010 @ 1:31 pm
“..in order to get more business for the future they need to show that they can play well with others..”
SunCal has 30 bankruptcies — does this sound like a company that’s worried about image? Does it sound like a company that knows how to conduct business?
Just last month, their lenders in a New Mexico deal started foreclosure proceedings against SunCal, and its financial partner, DE Shaw.
SunCal also failed to contribute a penny towards the cleanup of the Oak Knoll site in Oakland. Whether they were unable or unwilling to do so, it’s all the same so far as the site’s neighbors are concerned.
This is not a reliable business partner by any stretch of the imagination, and to present them as such is absurd.
Comment by dlm — January 12, 2010 @ 4:12 pm
#6: The city is not being “sucked dry”, not even remotely, by Alameda Point. In your recent commentary you stated that ARRA loses $14M a year and that is blatantly untrue. As I’ve said before, if this development is such a great thing, then why do people use “misstatements” to justify it? Why not just tell the truth?
#8: If you have inside contacts, then maybe you can get us some solid, verifiable info on SunCal’s financial condition?
As for the whole DA/DDA issue: here’s something that should have been emphasized all along: The Development Agreement is signed within a couple of weeks after the election, right away, and with it SunCal gets rights to develop the property — and those rights can be sold!!
Once the property is exempted from Measure A, the value will skyrocket — that’s how they profit without ever owning the land. It’s the “delta” between the Navy’s asking price and the post-election value of the land.
Comment by dlm — January 12, 2010 @ 4:25 pm
But DLM, those rights are meaningless if they don’t have the land, which is the DDA and the council/ARRA can condition the sale of the land as needing approval. In fact, the language is really not that much different than the Alameda Landing DA. The rights in the DA are meaningless without a DDA.
Comment by John Knox White — January 12, 2010 @ 4:39 pm
SunCal/Shaw can sell the development rights without getting the city’s approval, so I don’t see what’s to stop them from selling those rights, prior to signing a DDA.
They have those rights with or without the DDA — they can default on the DDA without effecting their rights under the DA, so the DDA is irrelevant.
As I said above, with a Measure A exemption that waterfront land would skyrocket in value, way beyond what the Navy is asking, so take the new value of the land and sell for that, and let someone else worry about what gets built there.
That would explain why Shaw got into this — it never made sense that they’d wait around for 5 or 10 years to see a return, and they’re not. They’re gambling a couple million on winning the election on Measure B, getting the development rights and then selling them to the highest bidder(s). It makes sense.
Comment by dlm — January 12, 2010 @ 5:22 pm
Okay, here’s what the Development Agreement says:
Pg 1, Section B: “…it is __expected__ [not “shall’]that the ARRA will convey portions of ther Property to the Developer pursuant to a [DDA] or other contract.”
Pg 2, Section D: “It is __expected__ that the CIC will enter into the DDA between the ARRA and the Developer…”
Pg 8, Section 2.9: Nothing in this [DA] is intended to create any affirmative development obligations to develop the Alameda Point Project at all or in any particular order or manner, or liability in Developer under this [DA] if the development fails to occur. Other agreements among the ARRA and/or the CIC and the Developer will establish obligations regarding development of the Alameda Point Project, and any default under those separate agreements (including failure to develop in accordance with the timing provisions of such agreements) does not constitute a default under the [DA].”
P. 19, Section 9.1: Right to Assign. Developer shall have the right to sell, assign or transfer in whole or in part its rights, duties and obligations under this [DA] to any person or entity at any time during the term of this[DA] without the consent of City..”
If you want to dispute this, go for it. It will helpful to get another viewpoint.
Comment by dlm — January 12, 2010 @ 5:48 pm
PS: Alameda Landing does not have a Measure A exemption, so there’s no windfall profit available as there would be w/ Alameda Point.
Comment by dlm — January 12, 2010 @ 5:51 pm
To see how SunCal/DE Shaw are handling their business in another venue, check:
http://www.clearlynewmexico.com/?p=3242
They do not belong in Alameda.
Comment by Bob — January 12, 2010 @ 6:53 pm
Your sources back up my assertion. They do not have the land, the city negotiates a DDA, SunCal can’t sell entitlements for a project that doesn’t exist for very much, without a DDA, no project exists. State law requires a negotiated DDA, that’s the real estate document.
Everything you’ve sourced backs up the claim that the city has all the rights and responsibilities to negotiate whatever they need. The measure A exemption means bubkus without the DDA.
Comment by John Knox White — January 12, 2010 @ 7:31 pm
#32
Of course, if you vote No on Measure B, there is no DA and therefore no DDA to worry about.
Have you officially announced your support of Measure B or are we to infer it from your postings?
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — January 12, 2010 @ 8:03 pm
TRUST US!! (or in this case, TRUST THEM!!). Business relationships are based on binding terms, not on trust, and certainly not with a business “partner” who’s going under and desperate for money.
As the City Attorney said clearly above, we have no assurances that SunCal will agree to change the terms in the Development Agreeement after the vote, and from a business standpoint, why should they?
And what about DE Shaw? Hedge funds don’t make money off being nice, in all fairness.
Anyway, I think I’ve provided a very plausible scenario above — they win the election, they dump Measure A, and — boom!– the price goes up. They they sell the development rights for the appreciation (beyond the Navy’s asking price), take the money and run.
This strategy is not exactly news in real estate circles.
Comment by dlm — January 12, 2010 @ 8:31 pm
This is what the Alameda City Attorney has to say:
“After the election (and assuming voter-approval), SunCal may amend the Development Agreement if it chooses to do so; However, SunCal will control whether and when it would seek such a amendment and it should not be assumed that any developer would voluntarily relinquish fiscal and other benefits gained from a voter-approved Initiative;
Inconsistent terms in any other negotiated agreement (such as a Disposition and Development Agreement, or “DDA”) may be required to be resolved in favor of the terms in the Development Agreement. Accordingly, although the City and SunCal could negotiate a DDA to mitigate the impacts identified in the Election Reports, SunCal also would have to amend the Development Agreement in order to assure consistency and enforceability a of any such negotiated terms”
While the legal opinions of John Knox White, Jon Spangler and Lauren Do may differ, the City Attorney’s opinion carries more weight.
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — January 12, 2010 @ 8:38 pm
35:
ANT, none of the three of us (Lauren Do, John Knox White, nor I) are attorneys or judges, and our opinions are not “legal” ones at all. But the City Attorney (whom I know and respect) is an attorney, not a judge, and it is the courts that interpret the law and resolve legal disputes.
That said, what JKW has said is correct: the development rights in the DA mean nothing until the land is conveyed to the City by the Navy after a DDA is agreed to. No one would buy such meaningless development rights unless the infrastructure replacement (cost: $700 million or more) and toxic remediation of the land and buildings has been agreed to and assured if not completed.
As to “trust” being so quickly dismissed bt Measure B opponents, please stop to consider what your own lives would be like without a basic level of trust in–and good will towards–your neighbors, your city government, other drivers on the roadways, or in technologies like the internet that bring us together here in cyberspace. Every business–developers included–depends on good will and must be trustworthy to some degree or it cannot survive.
If we truly cannot trust anyone at all we are in much worse shape than Alameda point’s worst infrastructure nightmares and toxic Superfund sites…
Comment by Jon Spangler — January 12, 2010 @ 9:08 pm
Any response to post 9, JS?
Comment by David Hart — January 12, 2010 @ 9:11 pm
Alameda Landing is frequently used as an example of how there is nothing out of the ordinary with Measure B. There are two differences that are never mentioned. One is that come the end of this year Catellus has to be ready with a package for the city to approve. Catellus does not get 25 years to produce.
The other difference is that with Catellus it is their money. They don’t have separate investors for each of their projects. They have more at stake because if they walk away their ten million dollars or whatever it is will be a complete loss to their corporation.
Tony Daysog, having been the lone vote for Catellus when choosing the first Alameda Point master developer, could turn out to have cast the wisest vote.
Comment by Richard Bangert — January 13, 2010 @ 7:21 am
Catellus is not Catellus anymore, they are now owned by Prologis. Let’s see what they really end up doing at the Landing this year before we try to draft them as the next master developer.
25, 26. changing Measure A does not instantly mitigate all the other problems at the Point , including fill etc. about which you have expressed concern. I don’t see the land value “sky rocketing” instantly as a result of the vote.
SunCal’s lobbying for a TIDD on green fields in New Mexico does not inspire great confidence and trust, but how much research have opponents done into their track record prior to the economic collapse and Lehman failing? One reason they didn’t spend money to mitigate Oak Knoll is that they were trying to get it from Lehman which they ultimately did.
It’s not like the bankruptcies are irrelevant, but the discussion about them here tends to be hyperbolic.
Comment by M.I. — January 13, 2010 @ 9:03 am
here’s some selective Googling http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122651171540121229.html
Comment by M.I. — January 13, 2010 @ 9:04 am
Any response to post 9, JS??
Comment by David Hart — January 13, 2010 @ 12:04 pm
9:
David,
I stand by my original point, as written. The overall accuracy of SunCal’s statements has been somewhat better, as I read and understand the facts, than the opponents of Measure B.
That is not to say (and I never said or intended to imply) that SunCal is or was accurate 100% of the time nor that the opponents of Measure B have no legitimate arguments. We live in an imperfect world and errors have been made on both sides. There is a lot more gray in all the aspects of Alameda Point–from historic preservation and cleanup costs to the actual (versus City-projected) effects of traffic at Alameda Point that will exist in 25 years–than there is black and white. And being imperfectly human, people make mistakes.
During last Thursday’s presentations by Pat Keliher and David Needles at the League of Women Voters forum at the library, I felt that David Needles abandoned a careful and accurate stating of the often-complex facts about the initiative and Alameda Point in pursuit of making rhetorical points against SunCal. I know David and respect his commitment to our community, but those departures from a more responsible treatment of the truth bothered me.
I did not see any similar departures from supportable facts on the part of Pat Keliher. While I have a clear bias in this discussion, I could not knowingly ignore such behaviors on either side.
As to your specific critiques:
I suspect that the misinformation given out by signature gatherers (who were not volunteers and were largely unfamiliar with Alameda’s history) was not deliberate on SunCal’s part but the result of poorly-briefed and misinformed signature gatherers who misinterpreted their training. That is NOT the same thing as SunCal deliberately trying to deceive Alameda citizens, which would be an ineffective, counterproductive, and expensive policy to pursue.
As to your second point, the developer and its financial backers WILL pay up front for many of the substantial improvements to Alameda Point that must precede and significant redevelopment. Thiose costs include replacing thr infrastructure, detoxifying the contaminated buildings, and more. There may or may not be public reimbursement for some of those costs, but the City has no way of
paying these substantial costs “up front,” so initial private-sector funding is the only available option right now.
Lying has never been a deliberate part of SunCal’s policy, nor (I believe) has it been the policy of Measure B’s opponents. To falsely or unreasonably accuse either side of deliberate lying merely obscures the very complex and real issues that we need to face in Alameda, and are, IMHO, a waste of time in either direction.
Comment by Jon Spangler — January 13, 2010 @ 12:30 pm
The development agreement in the initiative documents (SunCal’s Measure B) is a legal contract which will be signed by SunCal/Shaw just shortly after the election. Voters will be asked to okay a binding legal contract which they don’t understand.
This development agreement was NEVER negotiated, SunCal/Shaw wrote it and now we’re blindly agreeing to it, by vote.
There’s no question that the DA creates very unfavorable terms for the city, and once it’s signed, that’s it, we’re stuck with those terms and they cannot be changed UNLESS SUNCAL AGREES TO IT.
In terms of legal agreements, this seems like a bad joke — and it’s made worse by assertions that it can all be fixed “later” with the
DDA — nobody signs a contract w/ obvious problems with an assurance that it doesn’t really count. It does.
Comment by dlm — January 13, 2010 @ 12:31 pm
42
I agree with you about Suncal’s lies being “ineffective, counterproductive, and expensive.” It’s been all three.
As to your second point, you seem unaware of the planned 9 figure debt that will be serviced by property taxes. That bit was left out of the “Make the Developer Pay” glossies.
Comment by David Hart — January 13, 2010 @ 12:53 pm
As for “screw having an amicable and pleasant relationship for the duration of our contract”:
It’s DE Shaw, the hedge fund, that’s really calling the shots here, not SunCal — Shaw is the financial backer. Is Shaw concerned about maintaining amicable relations with us? I sincerely doubt it. They owe allegiance to their investors and that’s it. They operate in cold, hard business terms, which is what they’re supposed to do.
Look at what happened in New Mexico: DE Shaw (supposedly) backed SunCal in buying a huge site near Albuqueque a couple years ago. Outside lenders financed the deal, and when a balloon payment on the mortgaged land came due just recently, Shaw just flatout refused to pay — so the lenders filed for foreclosure.
The point here is that Shaw is not making any long term commitment to working w/ SunCal, and we absolutely cannot operate on “trust” under these circumstances.
Here’s some articles on the New Mexico deal that fell thru:
http://alamedapointinfo.com/search/node/foreclosure
“The lawsuit asks that SunCal be compelled to pay $182 million, plus accrued interest and late fees, immediately. SunCal put up its project’s assets, including the land, as collateral, according to the lawsuit.”
“That means the lenders could seize the project from SunCal if it doesn’t come up with the money.”
Comment by dlm — January 13, 2010 @ 12:56 pm
I think the experience with Suncal at Oak Knoll is the most relevant example. Honestly, I don’t think it is realistic to expect them to carry through on the Alameda Point development given their recent track record, regardless of whether or not you think the development plan is a good idea. Oak Knoll was straightforward by comparison; now look at it. What was there has been destroyed and the development to replace it is stalled. We should feel fortunate that Alameda Point is being used to the extent it is currently.
Comment by Michael Rich — January 13, 2010 @ 5:53 pm
The thing is there were several different companies in the running and we chose SunCal Sooner or later a you need to support someone…the City can’t do it.
Drive around the base, mold or green stuff on all the housing, everything needs painting, broken windows, siding coming off at the gym, all the streets need major work, stop signs missing, landscape dead from lack of water, rusty roofs, which probably leak, no seismic upgrades…old foundations with no building just sitting there…a place falling apart not slowly buy fairly rapidly. But also place with great potential. Get rid of this developer come back and get another 5 years, get rid of that one..
I don’t think Oak Knoll is relevant at all. The whole thing about Oak Knoll is due to Lemans…and I don’t believe SunCal is finished there yet…just delayed.
Comment by Joaquin — January 13, 2010 @ 7:26 pm
#46 & #47
Oak Knoll is relevant. SunCal/DE Shaw’s most recent foreclosure in Albuquerque is relevant.
That’s the way the SunCal’s people do business. It’s just what they do.
It appears to be their Standard Operating Procedure.
Regardless of their financing partners–Lehman or DE Shaw. SunCal gets stuck, they walk away and leave a messsssss.
The Alameda proponents of B say DE Shaw’s $29 billion dollars will put the NAS in great shape.
Give me a break. Why didn’t they use that $29 billion dollars to get going in New Mexico?
SunCal and DE Shaw are not the end of the road for Alameda. When they had their attorneys write up their initiative, they created their own major roadblocks. Alamedans have been smart enough to read it, analyze it, and realize we’ll be much better off without SunCal and DE Shaw.
Comment by bob — January 13, 2010 @ 7:56 pm
42.
You say, “I suspect that the misinformation given out by signature gatherers (who were not volunteers and were largely unfamiliar with Alameda’s history) was not deliberate on SunCal’s part but the result of poorly-briefed and misinformed signature gatherers who misinterpreted their training. That is NOT the same thing as SunCal deliberately trying to deceive Alameda citizens, which would be an ineffective, counterproductive, and expensive policy to pursue.”
It’s not hard to deceive people about cleanup activities at the base since most residents do not visit the base, and even if they do, most of the cleanup effort until recently has not been readily apparent.
Given the amount of ignorance about the Navy’s cleanup effort that is apparent in comments to the Vision Survey, it’s not hard to see how people could be easily misled. Here is a sampling of Vision Survey comments concerning cleanup:
“Toxics need to be cleaned up before housing, etc. can be built. ” “Clean up all of the toxic waste left by the Navy” “Toxicity. I am concerned that the most toxic areas will not be properly taken care of and those areas will be reserved for market rate housing” “contamination cleanup” “#1 Get the Navy or Fed Government or whomever is responsible to clean up the radioactive and other
toxic waste that has been there for decades. Homes and schools built on a radioactive dump is *not* a
good idea, but somehow I can see this being overlooked in the name of progress and development..” “Who is cleaning up the Navy’s toxicity? This should be the first job to be done” “Clean Up from Navy pollution”
These are some of the comments submitted to the Vision Survey in November of 2007 despite the fact that one month prior, in October of 2007, the Alameda Sun ran a front page article entitled “Navy Estimates 10 years, Half Billion for Clean Up.” When this article appeared, the Navy had already spent $250 million. Even though there was information on the front page of a local newspaper, ignorance about the cleanup effort abounded even among people concerned enough about Alameda Point to fill out a survey.
The signature gatherers were playing on the ignorance of Alameda residents about the status of cleanup efforts. If the ignorance of the signature gatherers proves anything, it is that their message was one that they were trained to repeat. If they were not from around here, which they weren’t, then how would they have any knowledge of the amount of contamination at Alameda Point. How would they have gotten so far off message just because “they were from out of town”?
Comment by Richard Bangert — January 13, 2010 @ 8:14 pm
Bob,
#48 in your last sentence…I actually don’t realize that..you’re putting words in my mouth…not a good thing…speak for yourself. I don’t really know all that happened in Albuquerque or all the circumstances behind it and really don’t have the time to look into it. But one thing I do know SunCal wouldn’t be in business if that is all they did.
Vote your way we will vote our way.
Comment by Joaquin — January 13, 2010 @ 8:19 pm
#42
Did you gather signatures for SunCal’s initiative? You seem like a well informed chap. Instead of paying contractors per signature to put the measure on the ballot, shouldn’t have SunCal executives been out there collecting the signatures themselves?
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — January 13, 2010 @ 8:23 pm
#49
Why did SunCal find it necessary to hire signature gatherers from out-of-town to put their measure on the ballot? Did anyone of the 13 people listed on SunCal’s advisory committee volunteer to gather signatures for the petition without being paid?
http://alamedapoint.blogspot.com/
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — January 13, 2010 @ 8:44 pm
I would think 90% or more of every prop’s put in elections in California are from paid signature gathers…no surprise. BTW I never encountered 1 signature gather for Alameda Point or I would have signed.
Comment by Joaquin — January 13, 2010 @ 9:15 pm
Joaquin et al: Could you try and scrape up somebody who’s not a professional advocate and not associated with developers, just an ordinary, disinterested citizen, who’s followed SunCal’s initiative, understands the terms and is in favor of it?
and for #50: SunCal may not be in business much longer, literally. Lehman is going to wipe them out in bankruptcy court.
It’s fortunate that soembody’s taking an interest in this.
Comment by dlm — January 13, 2010 @ 9:37 pm
DLM: You imply that anyone who has spoken out for Measure B is either a “professional advocate” or “associated with developers,” I would ask that you prove that assertion is true prior to asking for people who do not fit into those two categories.
Comment by Lauren Do — January 14, 2010 @ 6:47 am
#51
Let’s see. This is Thursday so it’s wine and yes on B vote gathering night at the Pasta P. Some of you nay sayers should show up to whine else you’ll leave all the uninformed chaps to me.
Comment by Jack Richard — January 14, 2010 @ 8:54 am