Blogging Bayport Alameda

July 2, 2009

Green Gammon

Filed under: Alameda, Development — Tags: — Lauren Do @ 6:13 am

The other day when I visited the visited the East Bay Express website to read Rin Kelly’s article for the fourth or fifth time I didn’t realize that EBX had already updated its website and had posted the July 1 edition early.   I ran across this headline: “You’re Not an Environmentalist If You’re Also a NIMBY” courtesy of Robert Gammon and I was intrigued.  I totally expected this to be a screed on how NIMBYs actually are environmentalists in that EBX model of being contrary about practically everything.    What I read completely surprised me in a OMFG way.   So OMFG, I read it twice in one sitting because I couldn’t believe what I was reading.

Gammon’s piece revolved mostly around the Greenbelt Alliance report “Grow Smart Bay Area” that I referenced about a week ago.   Highlights:

…For years, city dwellers who consider themselves to be eco-conscious have used environmental laws and arcane zoning rules to block new home construction, especially apartments and condominiums. In the inner East Bay, liberals have justified their actions by railing against gentrification and portraying developers as profiteers. But the lack of urban growth in Berkeley and in parts of Oakland during the past few decades also has contributed to suburban sprawl and long commutes. And all those freeways choked with cars are now the single biggest cause of greenhouse gas emissions in the region.

Environmentalists who think globally say suburban sprawl and the destruction of rural farmland must stop…

…for the inner East Bay to grow the way it should, it will have to overcome the region’s well-developed not-in-my-backyard (NIMBY) sensibilities. In Berkeley and North Oakland, in particular, liberals who view themselves as environmentalists have been blocking dense housing developments for decades. They have complained about traffic, overcrowding, and the potential destruction of neighborhood character. But among those who are paying attention to the causes of global warming, there is a growing realization that no-growth activists have to step back and look at the bigger picture. Climate change has forced a paradigm shift in the environmental movement. If you live in an urban area, you can’t call yourself an “environmentalist” and continue to act like a NIMBY by blocking new housing.

…the people who have lived for years along the East Bay’s major transit corridors and consider themselves to be liberal environmentalists also need to finally start thinking globally and acting locally. The coming global warming crisis demands that they do more than just eat organic, install solar panels, or buy a Prius.

They also need to realize that dense development will make their neighborhoods and their cities better — not worse. More people means more shops, cafes, and restaurants — and more tax revenues. And when you think about it, who doesn’t want to be able to walk to the local store for a bag of groceries or grab a cup of coffee at the corner cafe — and save help save the planet at the same time?

There’s a whole section devoted to Berkeley and Oakland’s land use woes, but their debate over the height of the buildings has little to do with Alameda Point since the tallest proposed building in the project would only be five stories which is shorter than the shortest building quibbled over by Berkeley residents.   It is however, nice to see the “Mahattanization of X-city” is commonly used all over the Bay Area and not just confined to Alameda.

It’s an interesting read from Robert Gammon, I’m still unable to shake why I am still taken aback by it.  I guess it was unexpected by a publication that is so anti-transit.    I keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

103 Comments »

  1. Hi Lauren, still stickin’ w/ bacon?

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 6:54 am

  2. Hi Jack: Haven’t had bacon in a while. It’s so messy to prepare, splattering and all. But I haven’t given it up yet.

    Comment by Lauren Do — July 2, 2009 @ 6:58 am

  3. How about meatless mondays? :)

    http://alameda.wordpress.com/2009/06/27/meatless-mondays/

    Comment by alameda — July 2, 2009 @ 7:16 am

  4. Alameda, that’s a start. But if you really want to make a substantial difference… it needs to be meatless everydays and not just for Californians but the billions in Asia who are ramping up their meat consumption as we type.

    How we develop or not develop in the Bay Area does not make a measurable difference if climate change is your concern. Not one bit.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 7:26 am

  5. Living in a high density community like Bayport, with its infill highrises, makes Lauren an environmentalist.

    Comment by dave — July 2, 2009 @ 7:49 am

  6. Gammon is quite right. Maybe your shock is becasue he used to quote Action Alameda as a serious source about urban-planning issues here.

    Comment by BC — July 2, 2009 @ 7:52 am

  7. 4: That’s a classic free-rider response. No one’s actions affect the environment measurably, hence the need for collective (i.e., government, in fact coordination among governments) action to address it.

    Comment by BC — July 2, 2009 @ 7:55 am

  8. Lauren,

    I agree with you, Robert Gammon and many others that the environmental movement needs to be more supportive of low carbon and active, healthy lifestyle condos, apartments and town homes in urban areas, like Alameda, that can be effectively served by transit.

    After years of working for condos, apartments and townhomes at Alameda Point, I was bitterly disappointed when SunCal went for broke in the Initiative and minimized the role of City officials and staff, and hence citizens, in oversight of the development process. Given a transparent and inclusive process, I have more faith in the good will and good sense of my fellow Alameda citizens than SunCal, or evidently even our City Council!

    While I am encouraged that SunCal’s vision for Alameda Point developed by New Urbanist Peter Calthorpe is very similar to the Sierra Club’s sustainable vision for Alameda Point, I, like our City management, am very uncomfortable with zoning (the general and specific plans) and contracting (the Development Agreement) by initiative.

    Thus I was relieved when SunCal decided to postpone the Initiative. That postponement gives us time to develop an alternative to the Revitalization Initiative that will provide more certainty that the community we build at Alameda Point will be healthy and sustainble.

    Comment by William Smith — July 2, 2009 @ 7:58 am

  9. #7. What?

    Hey man… we are a 1-car usually-bike-everywhere family. But that’s not based on saving the world… that’s just plain good healthy sense.

    If climate change (for the worse) is inevitable, how are you going to stop it w/ tiny incremental changes only here when the rest of the world is ramping up their emissions? Do you think China is going to stop burning coal anytime soon? I’ll bet that our new cap-n-trade laws are just going to send more jobs and manufacturing to China.

    Using global climate change as an argument for where/how to develop new housing is bullshit. Unless you can figure out how to hold back the countries out there that want/NEED to industrialize, resources should be going towards how to live w/ climate change, ie transitioning out of low-lying areas… not developing them.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 8:09 am

  10. Alameda: I did see your post on meatless Mondays and thought it was a really good idea.

    All this vegetarian talk reminds me of this restaurant review of Central Vegetarian.

    Comment by Lauren Do — July 2, 2009 @ 8:12 am

  11. 9: I was referring to this, about the city’s role: How we develop or not develop in the Bay Area does not make a measurable difference if climate change is your concern. Not one bit.

    And Central Vegetarian is great for any day!

    Comment by BC — July 2, 2009 @ 11:31 am

  12. BC, there is something we can do but you (and most NIMBY’s ) will not like it. I have done a lot of research on alternative energy (setting out as an enthusiast) and what I am finding is NOT what I hoped to find. That is: there is only one “clean”, “alternative” energy that is powerful enough to provide our baseline energy needs and it starts with an “N”.

    The only other area where I see Americans making a *measurable* difference is by completely changing the way we eat, but I doubt we would ever legislate vegetarianism unto the masses. No combination of prius, buses, wind farms, “green development”, and other “alternative” energy sources and technologies (that we know about so far) can come close to reversing what Al Gore says is happening now.

    I do agree that infill as opposed to sprawl is better for the environment in other ways, but my point is — in regards to GLOBAL warming — it’s a nothingburger.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 12:40 pm

  13. Re #11

    Did your parents ever ask you something along the lines of “if all of your friends were jumping off a cliff would you do it too?” in response to your saying that “everyone else is doing it”?

    Your saying that if country “x” isn’t doing their part, then we shouldn’t do anything either.

    The Bay Area already has millions of residents and is on track to gain millions more so it absolutely matters how we develop. Changing the carbon footprint of 5-7 million people can have a huge measurable impact and to say otherwise reflects either willful ignorance (sorry, can’t think of a tamer word) or a dangerously cavalier attitude towards the wellbeing of the planet.

    Also, by if we, as a nation, don’t do our part we have absolutely no moral standing to tell China, or other developing nations, that they need to do their part. It’s called leadership.

    This city, and every other one in the Bay Area, needs to do it’s part so that the cumulative effort, regionally, is successful. That’s not to say that it won’t be difficult (like all things in the Bay Area it will be) but it’s imperative that we get started now.

    Comment by david burton — July 2, 2009 @ 12:46 pm

  14. David, what post are you responding to?

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 1:09 pm

  15. Jack, it is in response to your comment that “How we develop or not develop in the Bay Area does not make a measurable difference if climate change is your concern. Not one bit.”

    Comment by david burton — July 2, 2009 @ 1:16 pm

  16. I’m not sure we can make a difference either. If China and India start mass-producing inexpensive cars (as they are, I believe), then we’re in trouble. Also methane gas could be released as the arctic warms up — more trouble.

    Anyway, I recall that Robert Gammon has been very critical of AC Transit management, but I’m not aware that the Express is “anti-transit”. Is there something else?

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 2, 2009 @ 1:36 pm

  17. David, please see post #12.

    I think you are misunderstanding me completely.

    >>> Your saying that if country “x” isn’t doing their part, then we shouldn’t do anything either.

    No, I’m saying this since countries x, y, and z are increasing their populations and carbon footprints exponentially, it might NOT be a good idea to not build 1000’s of homes at sea level. If you and Al Gore are correct, cuttin’ back carbon in the Bay Area isn’t going to save Alameda Point from the rising sea.

    >>> reflects either willful ignorance (sorry, can’t think of a tamer word) or a dangerously cavalier attitude towards the wellbeing of the planet

    What livestock are you slabbing onto the BBQ this weekend?

    >>> It’s called leadership.

    Our national leadership is passing through cap-n-trade legislation that will simply send yet more manufacturing to 3rd world countries where they won’t have those laws. From a global perspective, our leadership isn’t really doing squat.

    >>> It’s called leadership.

    Again, go veggie. And support your local bike mechanics.

    >>> it’s imperative that we get started now.

    Yes, we better build some nuke plants to provide baseline energy for the millions that you say are on their way. Wind farms are not going to cut it (I wish they could.)

    This argument that we must build density at Alameda Point to save the world is b.s. I don’t mean to offend you or your well-meaning efforts at CASA… but this argument that we must build density at Alameda Point to save the world is b.s. imho.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 2:10 pm

  18. obviously unintended double-negative in there, please forgive.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 2:12 pm

  19. What if I harvest wild meat myself? Is that less carbon intensive than factory made tofu?

    Serious question.

    Comment by dave — July 2, 2009 @ 2:18 pm

  20. Dave, here’s my serious answer.

    You have to add up all of the inputs to raising your meat. You must raise grains (or corn, which is how they do it nowadays) and all the energy and fertilizer it takes to farm that.

    Let’s say you are growing your own grains so you don’t have to transport to feed the livestock. You need x amount of acres to grow enough grain to feed your livestock and you need fresh water for all of that acreage. Your overall cost to the planet will be less if you are minimizing transport, are a skillful farmer, and scale it right.

    I can post some #’s later, have to run out. I was coming up with a range in consideration of carbons and water resources it takes to feed typical n. american meat diet and vegetarians and the difference was exponential. I admit I’m a bit contrarian in that I take more consideration for fresh water usage than I do for carbon usage as being our most pending danger on planet E, but I will try to break it out.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 2:35 pm

  21. Doesn’t the U.S. have 20% of the world’s population but consumes 80% of the world’s resources (including energy)?

    Comment by Sarah — July 2, 2009 @ 3:09 pm

  22. These #’s are from from “Diet for a New America” by John Robbins published in ‘89.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Robbins_(author)

    Just a smattering…

    Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on 1 acre of land: 20,000

    Pounds of beef that can be produced on 1 acre of land: 165

    Percentage of U.S. ag land used to produce beef: 56

    Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 16

    Pounds of protein fed to chickens to produce 1 pound of protein as chicken flesh: 5

    Number of pure vegetarians who can be fed on the amount of land needed to feed 1 person consuming meat-based diet: 20

    Number of people who could be adequately fed by the grain saved if Americans reduced their intake of meat by 10%: 60,000.000

    Percentage of original U.S. topsoil lost to date: 75

    Percentage of U.s. topsoil loss directly associated with livestock raising: 85

    User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S.: Livestock production

    Water needed to produce 1 pound of wheat: 25 gallons

    Water needed to produce 1 pound of meat: 2,500 gallons

    (I found another stat somewhere…. 50x more water to produce a calorie from beef as it does from potato.)

    Here we get lovely…

    Production of excrement by total U.S. human population: 12,000 lbs./sec

    Production of excrement by total U.S. livestock population: 250,000 lbs./sec

    Sewage systems in U.S. feedlots: none

    – - – - –

    Sarah, N. America has 330 million people. Asia has 4 billion. Africa has 970 million. Of course most of those in Asia and Africa live in much poorer conditions than us. The thing is… they (15x us) are going to ramp up their consumption/carbon output whether we like it or not. It won’t be long before the U.S. is surpassed in C02 emissions. Unless we keep them poor! Welcome to GW politics.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 3:43 pm

  23. Jack B. (#12): Until they figure out what to do with the radioactive waste, “N” is not “clean”.

    Comment by LindaonOtisSt — July 2, 2009 @ 3:47 pm

  24. Linda, that’s why I give it the quotes. As I understand it, nuke emits roughly 30% C02 of gas-powered plants.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 4:11 pm

  25. #13: “This city, and every other one in the Bay Area, needs to do it’s part so that the cumulative effort, regionally, is successful.”

    The Bay Area has around 100 cities — my guess is that only a handful of them are being pressed to do as much as Alameda is, if that many. That’s the problem with all the standard rhetoric on this subject, that it’s largely meaningless in realistic, common sense terms.

    The state could do more to discourage suburban sprawl, for example by making it more difficult or expensive to get approvals for new water connections, but that’s not likely to happen. We’re not likely to see growth limits in any form, or true regional participation, because it’s too difficult politically to make that happen. Here as with this topic time and again, a little honesty would help, but that won’t happen either, because of the nonstop focus on ‘advocating”. So what we get in the end is a bunch of self-righteous people yammering at this or that city to think globally and consider the big picture.

    Well, I have considered it, and long story short, we’re getting this problem dumped on us with no other entity, region or state, stepping in to deal w/ the risk or the mitigations.

    (And on water/cattle: see Cadillac Desert on the cost of delivering water to arid cattle ranches.)

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 2, 2009 @ 4:52 pm

  26. Jack (#8, #17, #23, #24) – I wasn’t referring to development at Alameda Point and your post (#8) didn’t mention it either so I assumed we were talking about the larger Bay Area. Sorry, I was caught thinking off island.

    There is an abundance of land available for urban infill development (as noted in the Greenbelt Alliance piece) that is well outside of the areas that will be affected by sea level rise attributable to global warming. Much of that space should be looked at for urban infill opportunities. Alameda, where it can, should step up and do its part. As for Alameda Point, the impact of sea level rise should absolutely be part of the discussion of how that land is developed and is one of the reservations I’ve expressed about the SunCal plan (but maybe not on this blog).
    Your arguments about industrial meat production, and its impact on global warming, are well taken and that’s something we (myself included) should think about more. As for the 4th we’ll probably be grilling some of the locally raised, non-industrial pork we’ve been buying from a small farmer in Santa Cruz as part of our neighborhoods street party, sorry. I did shop at Alameda Bicycle this week if that helps (go Alameda Bicycle!!!).

    Your arguments for nuclear energy and against wind/solar seem too much out of the Dick Cheney/Big Oil/Republican play book (can’t call it an energy strategy, sorry). Linda is right that nuclear is FAR from clean when you look at the radioactive mess it leaves behind and, besides, it would take 30 years + to get any of those plants approved, built, and running which is way too late to make a difference. Wind and solar certainly won’t be the whole solution, you’re probably right there, but they can be a vastly larger part of the solution than they are right now, the technology is readily available, and they’re much less controversial than nuclear (unless you live on Cape Cod, think the view from your beachfront home is yours alone, and are friends with the Kennedys).

    The argument that cap and trade will destroy all jobs in the US also seems too much out of the Republican playbook. I imagine some jobs will be shipped out, but many of those were probably going for other profit seeking reasons. Most businesses actually find that it is a huge benefit to their bottom line to get energy efficient (just ask big businesses like Intel) so I find the “jobs will disappear” argument is much more fear mongering than fact. I’m sticking with Obama on this one that this will drive a lot of innovation that will create many jobs and find creative solutions that we haven’t even imagined.

    One or two last clarification I should make if I haven’t done so before:

    Anything I write here should always be taken as my personal opinion and not a statement coming from CASA. I’m just one member of an organization that does, and I hope always will, welcome many viewpoints. I’ve made it clear that I, personally, support taking a look at whether Measure A can be modified to allow some limited density building while keeping strong protections in place where appropriate (Measure A+), but I know that many CASA members wouldn’t agree with that and I don’t presume to speak for them. The leadership of CASA has a firm policy that it will remain neutral on issues not directly related to its mission (see website for mission statement) and will only take positions on issues directly related to carbon emission reduction.

    As for Alameda Point, I’ll reiterate what I’ve stated before – that I’m undecided on the SunCal plan. I like many of the urban planning ideas embodied in it, but have questions about some of the specifics (both of the planning and of the agreement with the city). I continue to review the documents, keep track of the ongoing saga, and listen to the points made by others on this, and other, blogs.

    Apologies for the long post.

    Comment by david burton — July 2, 2009 @ 5:37 pm

  27. Cadillac Desert—great book! I have not looked at water the same way since.

    One stops sprawl by banning building permits for anything outside of clearly defined city limits. That’s the fastest way, the most direct way—the only way— to address sprawl. Drive on 101 North, 80 East, 580 through Tracy, etc, and you’ll see what makes sprawl—acres and acres of storage parks, RV parks, auto malls, shopping malls, office parks, hotels, golf courses, junk yards, maintenance yards, and yes, housing but that is by far a small portion compared to the rest. Just observe—take out your blinders and look and take notes. All this sprawl is the result of too many people that need too much stuff that takes too much space. Even if you cram the people close together, the malls, and yards, the office parks and other service-related sprawl will grow, and the more people you cram in, the more of it you’ll need.

    SB 375 tried to address the environment with the usual indirect measures (high density/transportation) but curiously omitted the main cause of sprawl which is sprawl itself, by leaving out green belt legislation. My cynical self thinks it’s because developers had influence on it. No proof, just a hunch. It’s a very developer-friendly bill—opportunity to build thousands more units in targeted areas, without a ban on building the sprawling kind outside of them. Without the greenbelt provision, the bill is nothing but an invitation for millions more people to come to water-poor California. But never fear—the Yukon River has already been apportioned, and California can’t wait to get its share. Yes, read Cadillac Desert—it will raise your hair straight.

    Comment by AD — July 2, 2009 @ 5:44 pm

  28. 20:

    Jack: Harvesting wild meat means hunting. I’m not farming grain to feed those animals. I’d guess the only carbon expense is driving to/from.

    Comment by dave — July 2, 2009 @ 6:26 pm

  29. Nice one, Dave. I missed your wild. Good luck with that around these parts. My dad just got back from hunting in Argentina. He just loves to shoot birds.

    Please email me because I want to discuss inflation vs. deflation with you some time.

    – - –

    David,

    Thanks for your clarifications.

    Please allow me to clarify that I’m the furthest thing from a partisan you’d ever meet, so I’m not [knowingly] working off of any anyone’s playbook. Drilling off the coast would solve a lot of our energy/budget problems in California but that doesn’t mean I’d support it. Same with nukes.

    As for cap-n-trade… I am still studying this but it appears to me that the incentive would be to take many MANUFACTURING (not “all”) jobs to other countries. Big business is in business to make big
    money so they will do what they have to do for sake of their share holders. I hope you are right but hope is not a strategy. I’d love to know what just plain Dave thinks about it. (and we might be jumping the gun anyway because who knows how the senate will change it?)

    Comment by Jack B. — July 2, 2009 @ 6:50 pm

  30. Here’s a link to comments on the Express article:
    http://www.eastbayexpress.com/ebx/BrowseComments?oid=1061906

    See the comment from Jane Powell:

    “I find it infuriating that the views of people and organizations that have a major financial interest in promoting more growth and more building are given equal weight with the views of ordinary citizens who have no financial stake in the outcome. Developers have jumped on the “Smart Growth” bandwagon as they jumped on all the other planning fads of the last fifty years…”

    “And frankly, I don’t see why Oakland and Berkeley should bear the brunt of new development anyway- each city is quite dense already, and I believe they also have transit in Concord, Dublin, Pleasanton, Hayward and any number of other East Bay cities, which would accommodate the” transit villages” of which planners are so fond.”

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 3, 2009 @ 1:53 pm

  31. DL, thanks for that link. I don’t feel so alone now.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 3, 2009 @ 5:13 pm

  32. #30
    “I find it infuriating that the views of people … that have a major financial interest in promoting more growth and more building are given equal weight with the views of ordinary citizens who have no financial stake in the outcome.”

    I trust that you do not include those who may disagree with you in whole or in part as one of those people “with a major financial interest.”

    I, for one, have not seen a penny from the Alameda Point controversy. Some opponents, however, believe that disagreement equals conspiracy and baksheesh. If that’s so — show me the money.

    Comment by Linda Hudson — July 3, 2009 @ 8:56 pm

  33. “People are concerned about blind faith in the idea that if we increase density, we’re automatically going to get all these things,” said Juliet Lamont, a former chair of the Bay Chapter of the Sierra Club. “There are a lot of myths.”
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/04/BAN718FRF3.DTL

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 4, 2009 @ 7:49 am

  34. Re: the proposed high rises in Berkeley (ANT’s article above):

    “It makes a major statement that Berkeley is going to be an environmental leader,” he [mayor Bates] said. “We’re not going to continue sprawl.”

    “She [environmental activist] said it was hard for her to support 225-foot-tall buildings, but came to understand that if it was a hotel, it would provide unique long-term tax revenue to the city. Their plan said hotels were the only buildings over 120 feet.”

    So, Berkeley will stop sprawl by housing temporary guests in high-rise towers before they run and buy a macmansion in the hills of Contra Costa? Am I missing a connnection?

    Comment by AD — July 4, 2009 @ 9:17 am

  35. It isn’t whether or not a development is good for the environment, it is whether or not it is good for a developer. If higher densities yield higher profits, then developers will wrap themselves in an ecology flag. Sell the project as being “green” and local government will swoon all over you. Developers will use whatever the latest fad is to sell their project.

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 4, 2009 @ 9:49 am

  36. Re 35: Don’t tell me developers haven’t caught the “do good” bug for the sake of do gooders! I’m truly amazed that they would wrap themselves in any “flag of the moment” for the sake of profits. I think we need a takeover.

    Comment by Jack Richard — July 4, 2009 @ 10:10 am

  37. we need to regulate carbon globally, which means in Copenhagen later this year when Kyoto treaty expires the US needs to get on board and figure how to bring India and China along. The costs of cap and trade may be great, but the cost of doing absolutely nothing are much greater.

    Here is a good parody of what’s flawed about cap and trade.

    http://www.cheatneutral.com/

    Comment by M.I. — July 4, 2009 @ 12:17 pm

  38. #32: Linda: You need to stop taking things so personally — this is not about you. You people are all much too sensitive and suspicious.

    On the article: See the head of “Livable Berkeley”, Erin Rhoades, who’s quoted in the article. She’s actually a lobbyist for DCE Consulting, a construction management firm, but, gosh, she’s only concerned about the environment.

    Then there’s the mayor, Tom Bates, who never met a development he didn’t like:
    “Overall, Bates raised nearly 2.4 times as much cash as his challenger, but when it came to financial largess from people with an interest in getting things built, the mayor out-raised his opponent by 18 to 1.’

    http://www.berkeleydailyplanet.com/issue/2009-03-05/article/32405?headline=Mayor-s-Land-Use-Donors-Topped-Dean-s-by-18-1

    The influence of developer money (hidden or not) is a huge factor in what gets built, that’s obvious. Even in a left-wing city like Berkeley, developers have inordinant influence over local politics, to the point that “green” building standards are treated like an unnecessary obstruction.

    #33: ANT: Thanks for the quote. “Blind faith” and “myths” about covers it. People don’t resist this stuff because they’re not concerned about the environment. They resist it because it doesn’t make sense, and because an honest discussion with the zealous true believers is just too difficult.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 4, 2009 @ 2:32 pm

  39. #38 The irony of your comment is just too much. Just do some research on comments by the SoCA group, previously known as…). Recently, at the end of an ARRA meeting at city hall, a woman said to my husband, “You must be getting paid a lot.” That, despite his comment to the board that the plan needed lots more work. Ah well, as ANT says, each side has its zanies and sanies.

    And what do you mean, it’s not about me?

    Sincerely,
    Queen of All I Survey ;-)

    Comment by Linda Hudson — July 4, 2009 @ 5:25 pm

  40. If I were going to play this game the way some people have, I’d ignore the obvious intent of your comments, and then deliberately misrepresent it in personalized and demeaning terms. Of course, that would be utterly beside the point and contribute nothing to the discussion of this important and complex issue, wouldn’t it? Yet you did that yourself.

    The quote that I posted above had absolutely nothing in it that had anything to do w/ any kind of “conspiracy” and I’m sure you knew that — but you still had to drag that word in. You should be ashamed of yourselves, all of you, for stooping to such scuzzy tactics.

    I decided to play that game myself, so you could see what it sounds like — that’s what I meant about “taking things too personally”. It doesn’t surprise me that a few people might rely on this crass buzzword campaign, but when it’s several people, some who seem to be older and responsible otherwise, then I have to wonder what’s going on. Folks like me who disagree w/ SunCal’s plan are not “hysterical” and are not seeing “conspiracies”.

    I think it communicates a tremendous level of contempt for the average voter here, to think that public opinion can be influenced this way. It’s too bad, but I think that there’s a really condescending mindset behind the whole smart growth movement, that opponents are all ignorant NIMBYs. Then you wonder why people won’t listen to you.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 4, 2009 @ 7:10 pm

  41. Re #33 – AlamedaNayTiff

    Thank you for pointing out Juliet’s quote in the recent SF Chronicle articel “Berkeley wrestles with downtown development”
    by Matthai Kuruvila, Chronicle Staff Writer. Juliet acts as she preaches, and has been one of the stronges voices on the Northern California Sierra Club’s Executive Committee encouraging the Club to seek changes to SunCal’s initiative. She is concerned that the Intiative will not result in a project that realizes the Club’s vision for a healthy and sustainable community at Alameda Point.

    “People are concerned about blind faith in the idea that if we increase density, we’re automatically going to get all these things,” said Juliet Lamont, a former chair of the Bay Chapter of the Sierra Club. “There are a lot of myths.”

    Comment by William Smith — July 5, 2009 @ 10:15 am

  42. Re #40 – Darcy

    I agree with you about the following statement you made, in a general sense, not necessarily regarding Linda Hudson and Jon Spangler.” Complex issues such as development would turn out better for everyone if each side respected the other. I know that there is contempt by the “smart growth advocates” for the “NIMBYs” – one need only scan the Initiative to see that. I have many other examples, but I see no point in sharing them as that would not advance the discussion. I’ll just observe that such contempt is an obstacle to transparency and inclusion from wherever it originates.

    From Darcy-#40
    I think it communicates a tremendous level of contempt for the average voter here, to think that public opinion can be influenced this way. It’s too bad, but I think that there’s a really condescending mindset behind the whole smart growth movement, that opponents are all ignorant NIMBYs. Then you wonder why people won’t listen to you.

    Comment by William Smith — July 5, 2009 @ 10:26 am

  43. Bill. Thanks — all it takes is reasonable discussion.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 5, 2009 @ 11:09 am

  44. Bill,

    why is there no green belt requirement in the global warming senate bill 375? Why is the Greenbelt Alliance barely even mentioning green belts in their newsletters and statements and has adopted the smart growth language instead (density+transportation)? Clearly, without the outright ban of sprawl, sprawl will continue regardless of the other measures. I am very disappointed that environmentalists have chosen to count on a toothless approach, and then insist on applying it blindly over the objections of those who note the obvious shortcomings. If you know the reason for the shift, please share it.

    Comment by AD — July 5, 2009 @ 11:20 am

  45. Jeez, do you think there might be a bit more people taking notice in Berkeley if the proposed development there also reduce in the ingress/egress of that city to 5 pathways and removed BART?

    Point is, Alameda is a different community, and different environment than the other cities mentioned. You know – that whole “island thing”, -no freeways, no BART.

    Also the increased intensity on the current “Smart Growth” may be linked to the growth of alt fuel vehicles.

    Other sustainability planners advocate more self-reliant villages surrounded by green belt zones, and the presently well funded developers (many with our tax dollars) are not acknowledging the fact that we can build structures in every climate that require no energy use for heating and cooling, that also collect energy for electronic needs of the occupants.

    The most un-environmental thing we can do is to keep building the way we have. “Smart Growth” is just the present buzz word, but in most cases just a way to obscure realities that point to the fact it is a bad idea that developers want to profit from. In some instances the “Smart Growth” frame may make sense. Not here. The same is true with other “sustainable construction gimmicks like LEED. AUSD”s Ruby Bridges, that brand new school in Bay Port has perhaps the highest utility cost per student in the AUSD system. Their utility budget is almost the same as for Lincoln Middle School, the district’s largest middles school with about twice the number of students as Ruby Bridges. In Gannon’s article – he is reporting one side of the issue – just look who the references are.

    Comment by David Kirwin — July 5, 2009 @ 11:27 am

  46. #44: “I am very disappointed that environmentalists have chosen to count on a toothless approach, and then insist on applying it blindly over the objections of those who note the obvious shortcomings.”

    That’s a good point for discussion — why doesn’t the state pursue a growth limit of some kind? I’ve always assumed that it’s politically impossible or very difficult because it would antagonize real estate interests and numerous local jurisdictions. I think it’s telling that the preferred tactic now is to staunchly (and uncritically) defend developers. Evidently someone decided that working w/ real estate interests would be much more politically expedient than opposing them, and they’re probably right. Plus, targeting a few communities for high density development is also more expedient than establishing urban boundaries.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 5, 2009 @ 12:32 pm

  47. Thought that this would be of interest. It is a film made 70 years ago by the Regional Planning Association with commentary from Lewis Mumford. Part two is about new communities that seem like a cross between suburbs and contemporary thought on smart growth. Part one is about the development of American cities. Part two is probably more relevant in terms of “smart growth.”

    http://www.archive.org/details/CityTheP1939_2

    http://www.archive.org/details/CityTheP1939

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 5, 2009 @ 3:46 pm

  48. AD, Re #44,

    I don’t follow Sacramento legislation closely, but do have some contacts who maybe able to provide specific answers. I’ll see what or who I can dig up to provide you an answer.

    I can provide a general context for why greenbelts might be less prominent in today’s legislation and planning. The reason is simply that greenbelts have largely been established in Alameda and Contra Costa Counties, that is the East Bay. The action has now turned to protecting these belts -and one of the best methods for protecting them, according to the current leadership of both the Sierra Club, Greenbelt Alliance, and the Labor Unions (yes, labor unions and environmentalists forged a very close partnership during the Bush years), is compact urban infill. See a following comment for an essay on the disagreement in the environmental community, including the Sierra Club, on how tightly to regulate growth.

    I wish I could provide you with more particulars, but will try to identify contacts for you who can.

    When I was chair of the County of Alameda’s Planning Commission in 2000, I played a role in establishing solid urban growth limit lines in Alameda County. My signature on a ballot argument supporting a Sierra Club sponsored initiative that would require a COUNTY wide vote for the development of any land outside of cities then zone of influence led to the Supervisor who appointed me to request my resignation. The Supervisor’s largest campaign contributors had proposed 10,000 homes and accompanying business and office space for North Livermore. As my term expired in three months, and I had never intended to serve more than three years anyway, I negotiated for a suitable successor and resigned. The initiative passed overwhelmingly, cows still graze in North Livermore, and the initiative still protects most agriculture and open space elswhwere in Alameda County.

    The Sierra Club and others have also succeeded in similar protections for agriculture and open space in Contra Costa County, but from what little I know about that protection, I don’t think it is as iron clad as what we have here in Alameda County.

    When I campaigned for the Alameda County Initiative, one of my major points was that we could accomodate more growth in the already developed urban areas, and gave Alameda Point as an example of an area suitable for accomodating that growth.

    AD’s Query

    Why is there no green belt requirement in the global warming senate bill 375? Why is the Greenbelt Alliance barely even mentioning green belts in their newsletters and statements and has adopted the smart growth language instead (density+transportation)? Clearly, without the outright ban of sprawl, sprawl will continue regardless of the other measures. I am very disappointed that environmentalists have chosen to count on a toothless approach, and then insist on applying it blindly over the objections of those who note the obvious shortcomings. If you know the reason for the shift, please share it.

    Comment by William Smith — July 5, 2009 @ 4:22 pm

  49. AlamedaNayTiff!

    Absolutely marvelous – and informative – film on the state of thinking regarding urban planning in the 1930s! Californians in the Central Valley could benefit from considering, but not slavishly adotping, those ideas today.

    Thank you for a wonderful find!

    Comment by William Smith — July 5, 2009 @ 4:40 pm

  50. Alameda Point Activists of All Persuasions!

    Below is a letter to the editor that was published earlier today on the Alameda Daily News.

    The letter addresses two main points:

    1) two different views of the future of growth within the environmental community, and

    2) a suggestion that all of us avoid ad hominem arguments.

    From Wikipedia: Ad hominem arguments reply to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

    The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

    Bill

    Published in Don Roberts Alameda Daily News, July 5, 2009
    http://www.alamedadailynews.com/

    Editor,

    Dennis Green in his response to me identified several points of legitimate dissent within the environmental community. Dennis’ no growth positions are feasible and reasonable if one is willing to restrict the growth of the population, presumably more gently than China has. There is a home in many environmental groups, including the Sierra Club, for those advocating zero population growth.

    There is also a large segment of the environmental community that accepts that growth, must, and can, be more sustainable and accommodated. Such growth creates additional wealth and is the basis for prosperity in our current economic system. It will take many years to wean our current economic system from its addiction to capital and consumer goods to less tangible goods such as more sports, arts, culture and educational and health services for a larger part of our population. I belong to the limited growth segment and maintain that sustainable growth can actually improve our communities, make them more walkable by providing more services nearby, and lead to more active and healthier lifestyles. For instance, most transit users walk more than car commuters.
    Dennis’s ad hominem (name calling) comment at the end wondering if I was in SunCal’s back pocket weakened his otherwise valid points. Such statements lead one to ask what other parts of his arguments are based on lazy speculation.

    SunCal is a legal entity entitled to its view and our society, including D.H. Shaw, has entrusted it with enormous resources. SunCal is entitled to make its case. My comments on other blogs though, demonstrate that I am no fan of how SunCal has chosen to make that case. SunCal has tried to distract Alameda citizens from real issues, such as finances, environmental hazards and traffic impacts, by focusing our attention on sports amenities, transportation improvements and accelerated environmental cleanup benefits. Any one of these benefits alone is credible; all of them together are incredible. If the Revitalization Initiative is approved and built with no more financing than has been identified, we, the voters, will likely have pitted one community interest against another as each group tries to stake a claim to the limited funding.

    I’ve contributed letters to this publication for nearly two decades, long before SunCal entered the picture, advocating change to the City charter to allow the construction of new market rate condos, apartments and townhomes at Alameda Point. SunCal at first delighted me when they held an outstanding series of public workshops to gather input for a new plan for Alameda Point, which I find to be very similar to the Vision for Alameda Point endorsed by the Sierra Club. Then they bitterly disappointed me when they wrote changes to zoning (the general and specific plans) and a contract (the development agreement) into the Initiative. I am committed to help someone, maybe SunCal, maybe some entity more willing to negotiate with our City staff and that shows more respect to our citizens in their campaigns, to implement that vision. I very much would prefer that the Revitalization Initiative be modified with a process for ALL elements that is as transparent and inclusive as the process SunCal and the City used to develop the vision.

    If both camps of the environmental community refrain from name calling and stick to the issues, we will be better able to cooperate on identifying the shortcomings in the Initiative that we can cooperate on highlighting – presumably the zero population growth side for permanently stopping developments with condos, apartments and townhomes, and the limited growth side for increasing the involvement of City staff and citizens to better insure that Alameda Point includes condos, apartments and townhomes, with benefits such as open space and toxics removal, for everyone. Both sides can likely agree that that some other course of action for Alameda Point is preferable to the recently circulated Revitalization Initiative now held in limbo by SunCal.

    William J. Smith

    Comment by William Smith — July 5, 2009 @ 4:56 pm

  51. #50

    Where were our city leaders when SunCal was getting signatures for its “Head’s we win, tail’s you lose” ballot initiative? Our Mayor stumbled reading the script provided to her by SunCal on a robocall message. Councilman Matarrese, supposedly the brightest of our elected representatives, apparently endorsed the measure before even reading it. (And if he did read it, the story becomes even more grim.)

    Why should anyone in this community trust SunCal or our elected representatives? The council has undermined its own credibility. Any goodwill that SunCal hoped to gain in the community is gone. Their greed got the best of them. Hopefully they will be escorted to the Posey Tube and told to keep walking.

    It is time for a true voter initiative, not one paid for by a major developer.

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 5, 2009 @ 5:35 pm

  52. #50

    “SunCal has tried to distract Alameda citizens from real issues, such as finances, environmental hazards and traffic impacts, by focusing our attention on sports amenities, transportation improvements and accelerated environmental cleanup benefits. Any one of these benefits alone is credible; all of them together are incredible. If the Revitalization Initiative is approved and built with no more financing than has been identified, we, the voters, will likely have pitted one community interest against another as each group tries to stake a claim to the limited funding.”

    I seldom quote the bible, but sometimes a bible passage really does help to clarify a matter.

    Deuteronomy 16:19
    Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 5, 2009 @ 6:44 pm

  53. DL–tranquilo, hombre. Just trying to report from the trenches from my side of no-man’s-land.

    One can try to have a substantive discussion in the midst of an emotional, divisive subject like Alameda Point, and I appreciate your efforts to do just that. But this has been going on since my “recent” arrival in Alameda nearly 12 years ago, and I’m tired of it. I prefer to read fiction, anyway; Jon’s the civic warrior in our house. The cat is neutral.

    Comment by Linda Hudson — July 5, 2009 @ 8:56 pm

  54. #53: I don’t want hysterical fanatics telling me what to do!! (That was Helen Sause’s advice, and I’m taking it.)

    Don’t try and pretend that you’re not hysterical either. Anyone can see that you are.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 6, 2009 @ 10:57 am

  55. Bill,

    I too don’t follow Sacramento politics too closely. I have paid attention to this particular bill however because it is behind so much of what is happening, including right here here and right now with Alameda Point. To summarize, the bill is supposed to address global warming by mandating fuel efficiency and alternative fuels, mandating increased densities for specified areas (those close to transportation nodes) and shifting transportation funds to denser areas, effectively penalizing low density areas by removing funds from them. I have no problem with the goal, I have problem with the effects. One effect is that low density areas already built will be deprived of transportation funding, which will practically lock the residents of those areas into a driving lifestyle forever—unless they choose to move. Of course, if they move, supposedly to denser urban areas, someone else will buy heir homes, so the problem continues. A second effect is the frustration and possible damage caused by the indiscriminate mandate for high density regardless of local conditions—for example, the fact that we are an island here. Any positive effect of increased density on reducing green house gases is easily offset by cars idling in traffic when local conditions are not considered. Three, the bill is being quoted as a way to curb sprawl, and was actually endorsed by the Greenbelt alliance for that reason. But the bill does not impose urban boundaries mandate the way it does density. Without this stop measure, the main effect of the increased density will be to bring even more people into California—a state with very limited water, and populated to the degree it is almost criminally in that regard. Without a strong stop measure on ex-urban growth from the state level, the demand for SFH outside of cities will continue to create supply, regardless of the additional urban living space provided. Too much density, and the problems that come with it, will push out into the unrestricted areas the very people who live in cities like Alameda now. I liken that bill to an attempt to fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom. Without plugging the hole (mandating urban boundaries) the door to increasing the population in CA is open permanently, and the faucet will need to be running permanently too—until it dries up and all comes to a grinding halt, in a disastrous manner most likely.

    For these reasons, I am unwilling to unquestioningly make the sacrifices asked of me: accept 10,000 new residents who will make my commute hell and put huge strain on my city, inevitably eroding a quality of life I like, but without the satisfaction of knowing that I’m doing any real good for the planet. I watch cities create a glut of high rise infill development at the same exact time as I see sprawl simultaneously grow in Sonoma and Mendocino Counties, so much so that between here and Ukiah 125 miles away, there is barely 30 minute drive in which you see no development along the freeway. Developments perched on hilltops continue to grow along I-680, and Brentwood farms where I picked apples 2 year ago are now tracts of housing. And I’m not a subscriber to the “something is better than nothing” philosophy—which is how I’ve heard people defend this indirect approach—because in this case I think that it creates more problems than it solves, and I want to be part of the solution not part of the problem. I also know there’s plenty of people who see what I see, judging by comments on other blogs, including sfgate, and callers to a Forum program I can’t find right now that discussed those same issues recently. So it would be good if this point of view is considered as the discussion about development continues, or things are likely to circle right back to people throwing names and stuff at each other from their respective trenches.

    Comment by AD — July 6, 2009 @ 4:31 pm

  56. Darcy and AD,

    44 and 46 and 55,

    Why doesn’t the State enforce a growth limit of some kind?

    My limited opinion based on a very limited knowledge base of state government: Traditionally, growth management has been left to cities and counties and state representatives are loath to tread here by restricting NUMBERS. Obviously they have placed requirements through housing elements, EIRs (Environmental Impact Reports)and other bodies. In the end, those restrictions almost always allow the construction to proceed and function more as a tax on building more than as a control on numbers.

    AD, regarding your comment 55, you raise many valid points that will take time for me to address piecemeal over time. Basically, I agree that done wrong, development of Alameda Point could make life more difficult without compensating benefits. I believe, though, that Alameda Point can be developed to benefit everyone and to minimize inconvenience. I think that the vision the Sierra Club endorsed on Stop Drop and Roll Alameda will do just that. I am not convinced, rather I am skeptical, that the Revitalization Initiative will realize that vision.

    I look forward to addressing your points one by one after we have resolved the fate of the Revitalization Initiative. Until then, my focus is on finding a better way to realize the Vision above. Until then I suggest that we cooperate on modifying that initiative respectfully remembering that we don’t share the same Vision for Alameda Point.

    Comment by William Smith — July 6, 2009 @ 9:12 pm

  57. Darcy and AD,

    Apologize for the terse nature of my comment 56. Here is another attempt to explain my position and why I can’t fully address all valid points now.

    I find myself in the position of mediator between opponents and proponents of the Revitalization Initiative. How did I arrive here?

    I disagreed with some of the tactics, but not the goals, of the proponents. Looking around for allies, I noted that I agreed with the opponents, especially the two of you, on some issues. So I decided to help you make your case on the issues with which you and I agree.

    I then discovered that many of your positions are consistent with a viewpoint that I respect, but disagree with on timing and tactics – that of the zero population growth advocates in the Sierra Club. To accomplish my immediate goal in Alameda, though, I don’t have time right now to explore the reasons I respect, yet still disagree with that position – I have responsibilities to earn a living and to my own family to, not just to Lauren, Michelle’s wonderful blogs and to Don Robert’s informative Daily News.

    So I ask you to have patience with me and allow me some time to address the broader state wide, regional and world issues to which AD has turned this discussion. These would seem to be topics that CASA and David Burton may be interested in, so perhaps they can help carry the discussion forward.

    Comment by William Smith — July 7, 2009 @ 5:01 am

  58. AD, re #52,

    Wonderfully apt quote from Deuteronomy to illustrate my point to be careful of those who “bring gifts for all.” One question, though. Is there a typo in the phrase “thou shalt not respect persons?” If not, I’m not sure how to interpret the phrase and I probably would have omitted it.

    I’m a believer but do not ascribe to the “tooth for a tooth” and “eye for an eye” interpretation of sections of the old testament. I’m more comfortable with the “turn the other cheek” interpretations of the new testatment. I still respect those who make mistakes, whether lieing, thievery, or deception or partial truths or hyperbole. I find it useful and Christian to figure out why they do so and adjust accordingly. The alternative, to disrespect persons, leads to disfunctional communities and governments, like we have in California and Sacramento right now.

    Comment by William Smith — July 7, 2009 @ 5:17 am

  59. Regarding the quotation in 52 and 58, that is not a typo, but an old usage of words. Some newer translations say “You must not distort justice; you must not show partiality; and you must not accept bribes.”

    Comment by Lois Pryor — July 7, 2009 @ 10:25 am

  60. #59

    It is the King James version. Here are other translations.
    http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/16-19.htm

    Take yer pick.

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 7, 2009 @ 10:45 am

  61. #54

    Flame on, DL, flame on. Takes me back to early days on DARPANET, where the technique was invented and refined.

    Comment by Linda Hudson — July 7, 2009 @ 12:14 pm

  62. Whoops, sorry.

    I meant to say that we’re all in flame mode, to some extent, on email and in blogs. If you consider Marshall McLuhan’s “hot media, cold media” idea, exchanging information via LAN or Internet is very hot. There is no physical context: we can’t see the startled looks, the pursed lips, the smiles that might indicate that we have crossed a conversational boundary. Kate Quick’s call for “civil discourse” can then be very difficult to achieve.

    Face to face, we can still be idiots, but at least we couldn’t hide that from ourselves.

    Comment by Linda Hudson — July 7, 2009 @ 12:24 pm

  63. I wasn’t flaming you (whether you meant it or not), I’m taking issue w/ a whole style of political “discourse” which some people have engaged in, by using the same loaded words over and over to describe opponents. “Hysterical” is one and [accusations of] “conspiracy” is the other — or among the worst, I should say. That’s wrong, and that’s the message I’m conveying here.

    You said in #30 above, “Some opponents, however, believe that disagreement equals conspiracy and baksheesh”, so you clearly engaged in that tactic, and now you’re engaging in the same BS. (Now that’s flaming.)

    You’re welcome to contact me via Lauren Do (if she doesn’t mind) and we can discuss this further — or would you rather not play these games w/ someone face to face?

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 7, 2009 @ 2:01 pm

  64. #52 a good biblical quote does have a credibility problem when you consider the context, like all the other garbage in Deuteronomy.

    I am just reading and catching up from about #50 on. Much of what AD and DL have said are or are not things with which I can agree as per Bill Smith’s comments, but as I read #44 and #55 the question arises for AD: were this not an issue for Alameda Point how much would you care about the teeth in sprawl boundaries? You are the self appointed Alameda tree person yet you appear to refer to environmentalists as a “them”, not an “us” or an entity with which you indetify.

    There may be much validity in your points of concern, but as far criticism I feel you sit passing judgment over the quality of actions of people who are self identified environmentalists, but I don’t see any clear commitment in principal or action from you for the long haul. Are you really concerned about the big pictures or just impacts which reach you?

    I think of the saying about being opposed to something good in favor of the perfect which is unlikely to be obtainable, leaving us with nothing.

    Comment by M.I. — July 7, 2009 @ 2:24 pm

  65. Bill,

    #41 A quote is a quote is a quote, but the article from which ANT quotes is mostly about the height of buildings proposed for Berkeley. Heights which exceed anything in the SunCal plan for the most part. Granted, Ms. Lamont’s quote is a broader reference to the density/transit theories, but it is a mere sentence from somebody about whose over all resume I personally know nothing other than her previous high rank on a Sierra Club board. As you commented in #57, you find yourself in opposition to Sierra Club members who are no growth. How does that effect their credentials and how much weight should we put on a single sentence quote from a single individual?

    I know there was some internal controversy in the past between zero population, anti-immigrant factions and everybody else within national Sierra Club, or possibly Friends of the Earth. I think the regional environmentalists should hold a summit to work on our differences about theory and practice.

    It took a while for us to get the Measure A forum to happen and those opposed went kicking and screaming all the way with some finally participating while others refused that as validation the process did not deserve. I would like to see those who self identify as environmentalists have some discussion among ourselves first. I have just tried to find comments by ANY about developers getting an elite to force a set of unforcable rules on the rest of the community, so I am very sensitive to the perception of a bunch of elitist enviros going off to caucus on what we are planning for everybody else. Ultimatly any solutions, be they a set of principals or legislation with “teeth” will have to be embraced by the public at large. I just think that as real differences emerge among self identified environmentalists, that we need to do some soul searching and sort out some shit.

    Comment by M.I. — July 7, 2009 @ 2:50 pm

  66. 65 typo- last paragraph… “comments by ANY”, not should be “ANT”.

    Comment by M.I. — July 7, 2009 @ 2:54 pm

  67. MI: I think the comments about growth boundaries are best considered in terms of smart growth’s ultimate logic — the question is, will high-density development in general be an effective means of stopping sprawl, in the absence of growth boundaries?

    Put differently: If we bury ourselves in people, is it going to accomplish anything worthwhile? If so, where and under what conditions?

    That’s the problem w/ a blind crusade — maybe our glorious future will be realized, and SunCal will build its “world class” community, and greenhouse gasses will be just as bad if not worse. People move out to East Nowhere because they want *single family homes* — and chances are, they’ll go on wanting that. So condos can be built in Oakland and Berkeley — and here — and young families will still be headed for Tracy.

    I think what Bill is saying in #56 is kind of telling too — traditionally, “growth management has been left to cities and counties” — except here, for some strange reason(!). What are the politics behind that? As I said, I think it’s a question of who can be strong armed and who can’t.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 7, 2009 @ 3:06 pm

  68. Here are the reviews of AC Transit on Yelp

    http://www.yelp.com/biz/ac-transit-oakland?rpp=40&sort_by=date_desc

    We can talk about what may be at Alameda Point, but this is what is real now. This is the bus system that serves Alameda, not the transit system that may serve Alameda some day in the future. What percentage of future Alameda Point residents do you think will choose to use this form of transportation?

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 7, 2009 @ 3:31 pm

  69. I read a set of side by side editorials in the Sunday Chronicle Insight on which I have wanted to comment.

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/14/INSV183RFN.DTL&type=printable

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/14/IN82181TJH.DTL&type=printable

    I side with Save the Bay on the Cargill Saltworks in Redwood City. This subject here and elsewhere is an ongoing discussion and I personally do not consider myself to be part of a “blind crusade”.

    It is not uncivil or terribly hyperbolic to choose that terminology DL, but it’s coming from you who claims to put a premium on etiquette. There is validity in the scientific measurements used to advance the density strategy. It may not be without flaw but at times it is as if you are arguing that gravity is a hoax because you can’t literally “see” it.

    Comment by M.I. — July 7, 2009 @ 3:45 pm

  70. #63
    “You said in #30 above, ‘Some opponents, however, believe that disagreement equals conspiracy and baksheesh,’so you clearly engaged in that tactic,…”


    Actually, I was intending to report an actual event that I witnessed, and some long-ago blog comments (but I can’t remember where they might be in the archives). In fact, “taking bribes to support Alameda Point development” is often used jokingly? sarcastically? by proponents of development who feel they’ve been tarred by that brush. I don’t assume anyone is taking money for being on either side of the debate. But we could straighten this out if you like. I will contact Lauren. I like wordplay but not flame wars.

    Comment by Linda Hudson — July 7, 2009 @ 4:35 pm

  71. #67 “traditionally, “growth management has been left to cities and counties” — except here, for some strange reason(!).”

    I’m not clear. Are you complaining that in Alameda growth management has been left up to the voters?

    Comment by notadave — July 7, 2009 @ 5:04 pm

  72. #70

    The smart growth advocates in the community discredited themselves when they formed a partnership with SunCal. The ballot initiative that SunCal wrote sucked power of the community and concentrated it in corporate hands. SunCal played the smart growth advocates like a fiddle in order to gain support for their initiative. SunCal’s initiative was exposed for what it is — a power grab. The only way for smart growth advocates to regain respect in the community is to admit that they made an error. I’ve heard words to that effect from a couple of advocates, but most seem to be staying silent.

    When some people in the community seem to have more confidence in a real estate developer than they do their own fellow Alamedans, then people do become suspicious as to their motivations. Some feel that a few of these advocates are about to pull a Peter Calthorpe.

    As long as SunCal stays on the scene, the community cannot come together. After they leave, it is going to take a while for wounds to heal and trust to be developed. The longer SunCal lingers, the more difficult that becomes.

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 7, 2009 @ 5:40 pm

  73. >>> When some people in the community seem to have more confidence in a real estate developer than they do their own fellow Alamedans, then people do become suspicious as to their motivations.

    Yep.

    Comment by Jack B. — July 7, 2009 @ 6:30 pm

  74. #70: Yes, please contact Lauren by all means. There’s a longer history here, and that’s the issue — not your comment alone.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 7, 2009 @ 6:31 pm

  75. Mark, do you have a problem with a specific position I have, or just with the fact that I don’t identify myself as and “ist” if some sort? I usually try to make sure my positions and reasoning are clear–people can go ahead and place me in any drawer they like.

    I think DL summed up the question very well: “will high-density development in general be an effective means of stopping sprawl, in the absence of growth boundaries?”

    I say, no.

    I bring up the Greenbelt Alliance because if anyone has stated the open space goal most clearly, it’s them. I expect an organization that has the word “greenbelt” in their name to be primarily concerned with that. These days however they speak trasportation/density speak better than they speak urban boundaries (yes I’ve read their newsletters and their website). Somehow, somewhere in the battle to save the environment, boundaries have become a good idea and something to be “encouraged”, while high density has managed to become a requirement and a mandate, with a good set of enforcement “teeth.” It’s not that boundaries are “traditionally” left to cities and localities—so were density measures, before the state and ABAG got involved. The reason is likely another one: High density requires people to do SOMETHING (plan, build, demolish, sell), therefore attracting a lot more interests behind it, and boundaries are by nature a “stop doing that” thing. It’s natural that the approach that lifts more boats will become more a “necessity”—the question we/you/environmentalists need to ask is, is this helping our original goal? I agree that more than a single approach will likely be needed to stop sprawl. But in a combination of solutions, we need to be sure we have the ingredients in the right strength and proportion so they actually cure the problem. If you are a patient with an advanced stage of cancer and a will to live, you’d likely reject a treatment plan based primarily on good diet and exercise, and demand the knife and the chemo NOW. You own interest will guide you, not the pitch of the healthy lifestyle advocates. So you can assume that I have a vital interest in stopping sprawl, and that’s the reason I’m rejecting the solution that doesn’t work and looking for the one that does.

    Re Alameda Point, my concerns are many:
    • I think SunCal are in it for the money they’ll get from selling the land all clean of zoning restrictions. They have no long term interest in the “plan”
    * I’m concerned about sea rise, and whether the Point should be developed at all.
    • I think Alameda needs more local jobs, not housing. I don’t believe in bedroom communities, and I don’t take a regional view of the jobs-housing issue—I take a very local view on that. The closer you work, the less you drive.
    • When adding housing/jobs anywhere, accessibility needs to be looked at realistically. To beat a dead horse into pulp, we are an island.
    • A few other odds and ends, but I’ll leave it at that for now.

    Finally, thanks to Bill Smith for trying to engage people of various stripes in a discussion on the issue. Consider this my turn, and I look forward to more.

    Comment by AD — July 7, 2009 @ 6:54 pm

  76. #71: No, I’m referring to state policy as it appears to be developing. In legislation such as SB 375 and via ABAG’s policies, the focus has become very smart growth oriented — as in close-in, high density development — even when it’s perceived as coercive or unreasonable, as it has been in Alameda and in Berkeley also. I’m saying that the state could adopt other complementary policies, such as taxing outlying communities to pay for housing (like an in-lieu fee) or imposing more wide-ranging growth limits, but they won’t do that, because they’ll be up against that much more opposition.

    #69: I’m really glad you posted those articles — I’ve been hoping to see some kind of discussion on that. Peter Calthorpe is pushing for development in a salt pond, on “land” that’s essentially a tidal flat, with levees holding the water back. I think that’s kind of mind-boggling, sincerely, since it’s not a brownfield, it isn’t blighted, and it’s the equivalent of building on fill. So what kind of rationale does that require?

    Where is Calthorpe coming from? He’s a consultant but maybe he believes in what he’s doing, that’s possible. Personally, I hesitate to say that someone is getting paid off, and I always have.

    Anyway, Mark, since you’re a contractor: How much can you generalize from one project to the next? Is it possible to look at construction in mostly intellectual terms, to hypothesize for example, and to what extent?

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 7, 2009 @ 7:17 pm

  77. #69: One further comment — is the Hayward Fault a hoax? Actually, you can see it in a sense, since it’s the fault zones that created the Coastal Range. Why does it get ignored — that’s just incredible. So no, I’m not opposed across the board to all development, but I think local conditions should be considered — and it does seem blind if not mindless to me that people can somehow manage to ignore the Hayward Fault.

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 7, 2009 @ 8:07 pm

  78. I think I know where we can get a deal on wind turbines.

    http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa090707_lj_appickens.1a334c9f.html

    Comment by Jack B. — July 7, 2009 @ 8:56 pm

  79. re 72:

    The smart growth advocates in the community discredited themselves when they formed a partnership with SunCal. The ballot initiative that SunCal wrote sucked power of the community and concentrated it in corporate hands. SunCal played the smart growth advocates like a fiddle in order to gain support for their initiative. SunCal’s initiative was exposed for what it is — a power grab. The only way for smart growth advocates to regain respect in the community is to admit that they made an error. I’ve heard words to that effect from a couple of advocates, but most seem to be staying silent.

    ==================

    Well said.

    Comment by dave — July 8, 2009 @ 7:21 am

  80. #72 “When some people in the community seem to have more confidence in a real estate developer than they do their own fellow Alamedans, then people do become suspicious as to their motivations.”

    I’m not allowed to have different beliefs than you? I’m not allowed to have a different opinion without having my motivations called into question? This is exactly the type of ad hominem attack that DL, Bill Smith and others have spoken out against.

    My motivation is simple. I believe the redevelopment proposed will make Alameda a better place for me, my family, and others. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, and that’s fine. One of the things I like most about the process currently underway is we get a chance as a community to vote on it. That way everyone has a stake in the future.

    Comment by notadave — July 8, 2009 @ 7:29 am

  81. Thank you AD (and a few others) for attempting to have a legitimate discussion.

    I wanted to put in my 2 cents(so to speak) about your first concern, regarding profit.

    Suncal has been very clear in its documentation of 2 things. 1, they are expecting a 20-25% rate of return on this project. That is fairly standard for a developer, and I don’t think it is unreasonable for corporations to make a profit. They after all have had to, and will have to front significant amounts of money to carry out the project. There is also a provision for profit sharing with the city if the rate exceeds 25%.
    2. Suncal has also been very clear that they are not a vertical developer. They put in the infrastructure and then sell off or contract out parcels to developers best suited – commercial developers would develop commercial space, residential would develop residential. I’m not sure what the downside of this is.

    Comment by notadave — July 8, 2009 @ 7:35 am

  82. #80

    “I’m not allowed to have different beliefs than you? ”

    Of course you are.

    “I’m not allowed to have a different opinion without having my motivations called into question?”

    Motivations are always questioned.

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 8, 2009 @ 8:08 am

  83. We can disagree on the plan, but our motivations can be, and probably are, the same.

    Comment by notadave — July 8, 2009 @ 11:31 am

  84. Sorry AD, I just scanned your posts trying to find where I felt you were making an us and them distinction about environmentalists, but failed.

    Let me restate. I am not much into labeling myself or others for silly purposes like pigeonholing, or putting into a “drawer”, but there are times when from a pragmatic point of view it is utilitarian to claim an identity or take astand. By owning the term environmentalist, I am declaring a stance, an point of view, a political analysis. In my view solutions require taking responsibility for the situation we are in and at least attempting to act, risking being wrong in the process. You can declare concern for the environment or anything else, but what do those words mean if you don’t take some action beyond judging other people’s attempts to act.

    It’s like the Republicans carping about Democrats but have no ideas of their own.

    Comment by M.I. — July 8, 2009 @ 6:41 pm

  85. “It’s like the Republicans carping about Democrats but have no ideas of their own.”

    I’m sure that’s not me you’re talking about. I’ve got ideas coming out of my ears and I’ve been very vocal about them—but if you’ve forgotten, try me again some time.

    Comment by AD — July 8, 2009 @ 7:05 pm

  86. 76. I am glad the Cargill articles struck a chord with you. Those two editorials to me help draw the lines for the discussion which has to be moved toward some general consensus.

    I am not an authority on construction or any other sphere actually. I am a self taught generalist in the construction trades, thus the title “general contractor”. From accumulated experience with fairly typical circumstances for the most part, my opinion is that good building is not about intellectualizing at all. However, in engineering for example we use lab conditions to set certain standards for things like seismic conditions which are seldom tested in the real world. There is no other choice really. You have what is thought to be state of the art and then Northridge happens and everybody goes back to the drawing board, and the lab.

    Determining what is unique or general about a situation has to be determined case by case, though it is rare when most things about a site or project are unique and don’t fall into general rules. I think everybody involved including SunCal and the Navy recognizes that the Point comes with a fairly high number of constraints compared to most sites. Toxics, reuse and use conversion, economic shifts, soil issues, sea level issues which are entirely in the realm of theory for now, ingress and egress limitations, Tidal Trust Lands, a very opinionated and often contentious community, etc.

    Comment by M.I. — July 8, 2009 @ 7:23 pm

  87. AD

    I have to credit you with being specific on urban growth boundaries for example, but I could never take seriously the idea of building out residences at the Point one lot at a time, as another example.

    I guess I am biased because I am tired and cranky and may not be taking a hard look at your actual record, if I could even recollect correctly. I am expressing a general feeling about hearing more criticism of the development and this plan than attempts at original options. The arguments are all about how we like everything the way it is, why does some “outsider” have to mess with it? I won’t use a pejorative like hillbilly to describe Alameda, but provincial often seems very appropriate.

    Comment by M.I. — July 8, 2009 @ 7:35 pm

  88. Almost every town in America is “provincial” Mark. It’s human nature. Ever seen the poster of the NYer’s view of the world? Ever spent any time in Boston, it’s far more inward looking, etc etc all the way west to Alameda. We aren’t unique in that regard.

    Comment by dave — July 8, 2009 @ 8:51 pm

  89. #86: Good list of local constraints. And yes, I’m saying, how much can anyone generalize about the appropriate level of development for a given site — especially with all those constraints.

    I think proponents start to lose credibility when they’re not willing to set any limits or recognize any constraints. The Hayward Fault has always been the fundamental issue for me — for many people (such as Calthorpe, and the Greenbelt Alliance evidently) it’s as if it didn’t exist.

    Calthorpe is also willing to promote development essentially *in* the bay, in the Saltworks project. It would be the equivalent of building on new fill, tho if I understand this correctly, he’s proposing that this 12,000 unit project be built on the existing grade, below sea level.

    I saw Doug Linney’s presentation to the Sierra Club on SunCal — he said (among other things) that low elevation should not be a constraint on development because it would preclude too many sites in the Bay Area.

    Okay, so we build all these projects near the fault, on fill, at low elevation, spend all the energy and resources to do that, then it all gets knocked down or flooded or both. How does that conserve anything?

    Comment by dl morrison — July 8, 2009 @ 9:13 pm

  90. AD: Re 27 and 44

    Marla Wilson, on the staff of Greenbelt Alliance provided the reply below to your question about what the Greenbelt Alliance is doing to protect greenbelts.

    She did not address your question about why more has not been done in the Senate bill you mentioned. She, like me, probably doesn’t know the history of the bill.

    Her phone number is included at the end of this comment if you would like to talk to her about Greenbelt’s strategies to protect the Greenbelt.

    Bill

    From: Marla Wilson [mailto:mwilson@greenbelt.org]
    Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 5:09 PM
    To: Flavia
    Subject: Re: : Request for Assistance with Responding to Query Regarding Why Greenbelt Alliance and Environmentalists Don’t Focus More on Protecting Greenbelts

    Feel free to pass this along to the person with the question about Greenbelt Alliance’s work.

    Greenbelt Alliance does a whole lot to protect open space throughout the nine-county Bay Area.

    The major thing is the report we just released recently, Golden Lands, Golden Opportunity:
    http://greenbelt.org/resources/reports/golden-lands.html

    We worked with ABAG and the Bay Area Open Space Council, as well as more than 100 other organizations, to prepare this research on the value of the Bay Area’s open space. The report is available for download at the link above.

    Other East Bay campaigns we’ve worked on in the last year to protect the greenbelt include:

    Tassajara Valley: http://greenbelt.org/regions/eastbay/camp_tassajara.html
    Livermore: http://greenbelt.org/regions/eastbay/camp_livermore_cemetery.html
    East Contra Costa Habitat Conservation: http://greenbelt.org/regions/eastbay/camp_eastcontracosta_hcp.html
    Concord Naval Weapons Station – we’ve worked to concentrate most of the growth near transit and protect the rest of the 5,100-acre site as open space: http://greenbelt.org/regions/eastbay/camp_concord.htm

    That’s just the East Bay. There are countless other campaigns active in the North Bay and South Bay. I’m not sure where this comment comes from that Greenbelt Alliance is not working on open space measures, but it’s simply not the case!

    For example, on the Fall 2008 ballot, we endorsed 7 ballot measures around the region: Measure T in Solano, which sought to protect 440,000 acres of agricultural and natural areas, Measure K in Moraga, which sought to protect over 2,000 acres of the town’s open space and ridgelines from development, and Measure P in Napa, which sought to protect more than 540,000 acres of agricultural land and watersheds. These are the kinds of things we’re working on in terms of open space protection. We want a permanently protected greenbelt of open space and focused development that shortens commutes by providing homes where the jobs are, and will continue to be.

    So we also encourage smart growth and infill development. This is because one way to protect open space is by making sure growth happens where it should, so there is less pressure to build where we should not build. Smart growth is a way to concentrate new development near transit to make our new communities more walkable, vibrant, and diverse. By meeting our housing needs here instead of in the greenbelt, we can protect these vital open spaces for generations to come. This is Greenbelt Alliance’s approach.

    Marla

    Marla Wilson
    Sustainable Development Associate
    Greenbelt Alliance
    631 Howard St., Ste. 510
    San Francisco, CA 94105
    (415) 543-6771 x308
    mwilson@greenbelt.org

    For more than 50 years, Greenbelt Alliance has been the Bay Area’s advocate for open spaces and vibrant places. Join us. http://www.greenbelt.org

    Grow Smart Bay Area: Check out our new initiative at http://GrowSmartBayArea.org

    Comment by William Smith — July 8, 2009 @ 10:47 pm

  91. Bill, thank you for posting this email. I am not surprised by anything said, and I certainly never meant to diminish the work by the Greenbelt Alliance. What I originally brought up though is still valid—the imperative for “smart growth” or infill is enforceable (via SB 375), while adopting urban boundaries is not—it’s voluntary by the community. The proportion and strength of the ingredients matters a whole lot in whether something is effective or not. Also, in Napa, the UGB has not prevented the creation of a sterile, dead, Disneyfied downtown, and in addition, someone I recently met there told me a development of something (hotel? retail center?) is happening outside of the newly renewed boundary, so I wonder if that boundary applies just to residential development but not commercial? See my comment about service-related sprawl above (#27).

    At any rate, I will forward my comments to Maria Wilson, and take it from there.

    The other topic, Alameda Point and what kind of development, if any, is appropriate there is a somewhat different matter and I’m happy to continue that discussion.

    There’s a website people may want to check out meanwhile, alamedapointinfo.com

    Comment by AD — July 9, 2009 @ 12:18 pm

  92. AD #44,

    At the Sierra Club’s Environmental Justice Committee meeting tonight, several of our elected members had a reasonable explanation for why there is not state-wide greenbelt process included in SB 375.

    Simply put, the state legislators from rural counties were united in their opposition to the State imposing Greenbelts in their jurisdictions. With some opposition in the urban areas, the votes aren’t there to pass statewide greenbelts. COGs (Councils of Government), such as our very own ABAG (Association of Bay Area Governments) have the authority to set greenbelts within their jurisdiction – but I’m not aware of any that have. That’s why the Sierra Club and Greenbelt have cooperated to pass several county wide Greenbelt Initiatives, such as the 2000 Initiative in Alameda County and one several years later in Contra Costa County.

    Comment by William Smith — July 9, 2009 @ 10:22 pm

  93. Here’s something from the Express on Berkeley re the conflict over high-density development in the downtown (the “Downtown Area Plan”). The opponents of the plan want to retain the green building requirements that were dumped when the City Council passed the final version of the plan (which has been under discussion for years).

    The View from Berkeley
    In the fight over density in downtown, both sides are claiming to be “more green” than the other.

    http://www.eastbayexpress.com/news/the_view_from_berkeley/Content?oid=1159895

    “In their drive to overturn the downtown plan, opponents will be going up against local smart growth and environmental groups as well as Berkeley Mayor Tom Bates.

    “The first draft of Berkeley’s new downtown plan was crafted during two years of meetings … “New Parks, green storm water, new green roofs, and fees to support it. Transit improvements and pedestrian improvements with fees to support them. … Really good protection of historic resources and landmarks. Mandatory green building standards way beyond just LEED standards. Zero waste. Aggressive water conservation. Solar Panels.”

    “But developers complained that the strict requirements would have made it too costly to build downtown, and smart-growth advocates warned that Berkeley needed to encourage a denser urban core to help slow suburban sprawl and address global warming. Eventually, the more developer-friendly city planning commission significantly revised the plan, and removed most of the original requirements. “

    Comment by dl morrison — July 21, 2009 @ 7:12 pm

  94. More on Berkeley:

    “But supporters of the original plan were upset about more than just the change in building heights. They were also frustrated that the planning commission had removed the green-building standards and other “public benefits” requirements. In a letter to the council and the mayor, the Sierra Club complained about the changes: “It eliminates any requirements for green building and site design, open space, transit improvements, and affordable housing in exchange for increased density.”

    Comment by dl morrison — July 21, 2009 @ 8:46 pm

  95. Likewise, SunCal too has reduced—on their own—the affordable housing percentage from 25 (mandated by a court decision) to 15. But they are sponsoring the Park Street fair next week—how community minded.

    Comment by AD — July 21, 2009 @ 9:16 pm

  96. The letters are out on the Gammon article — several pages’ worth. One I think appeared as a comment originally but the rest are new.

    http://www.eastbayexpress.com/gyrobase/letters_for_july_29/Content?oid=1164071&page=3

    Here’s a succinct analysis:

    “The plans for density are nothing but developer giveaways from legislators, both local and state, who know how to groom the money for the next election.”

    Comment by DL Morrison — July 29, 2009 @ 8:06 pm

  97. I’d like some comments from the Greenbelt Alliance on this.

    Report: California must adapt to changing climate

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/08/03/national/a030204D68.DTL

    “It encourages local communities to rethink future development in low-lying coastal areas, reinforce levees that protect flood-prone areas and conserve already strapped water supplies …

    To minimize the potential damage from climate change, the report recommends that cities and counties offer incentives to encourage property owners in high-risk areas to relocate and limit future development in places that might be affected by flooding, coastal erosion and sea level rise. State agencies also should not plan, permit, develop or build any structure that might require protection in the future.

    The report suggests the state partner with local governments and private landowners to create large reserves that protect wildlife threatened by warmer weather. Similarly, wetlands and fish corridors should be established to protect salmon and other fragile fish.”

    *****

    Here’s the link to the Natural Resources Agency site which has the draft report.

    http://resources.ca.gov/

    Comment by DL Morrison — August 3, 2009 @ 5:57 pm

  98. http://www.alamedainfo.com/Alameda_Map_George_Cram_Atlas_1908_B.jpg

    Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — August 3, 2009 @ 6:11 pm

  99. Here’s a better link to the draft report (and an executive summary), which is now available for a 45-day comment period:

    2009 California Climate Adaptation Strategy Discussion Draft Materials

    http://www.climatechange.ca.gov/adaptation/

    Executive Summary:
    http://www.energy.ca.gov/2009publications/CNRA-1000-2009-027/CNRA-1000-2009-027-D-ES.PDF

    Comment by DL Morrison — August 3, 2009 @ 6:48 pm

  100. How can our local development company (municipal government, elected and not elected) talk us into thinking that tearing up every available chunk of land to increase building density is environmentally sound and will make money for the city? It is a cute little semantic game, but what it all boils down to in the end is that the public is being taken for a ride down the road to nowhere. That debt can be sold as a product is laughable and corrupt, but J.Q. Public pays the price. What they don’t say about fiscal neutrality, for example, is that it is only applicable to the developer. If you read the initiative carefully, however, it is all there in the fine print. Increasing water demand is not environmentally sound. The water issue alone should give everyone pause on all of this stupidity.

    Comment by E T — August 4, 2009 @ 10:15 am

  101. ET,

    Water use alone….

    If you are against this plan based on increased water use you must be against any development anywhere under any circumstances, mustn’t you?

    I am not arguing for this project, just a certain line of logic as I see it. If we develop additional housing or industry at all it will demand more resources, period. Therefore, it follows that fewer lawns and the like, as per typical suburb, the better. Also there are economies of scale when it comes to density and building with gray water systems for example.

    If you are against anything which increases demand for resources please be clear. If so I would suggest you get seriously involved in a movement for birth control and zero population growth. I am not trying to be a smart guy here, I really mean this.

    Comment by M.I. — August 4, 2009 @ 12:52 pm

  102. I think that severe growth limits are really the answer ultimately, and they’re not happening because they’re so politically unpopular, not because they’re wrong. If we don’t limit the use of water, then I don’t see what we can do, given that the water is bound to run out. I think that environmental policies which continue to condone or even encourage development are moving us in the wrong direction.

    Comment by DL Morrison — August 4, 2009 @ 1:27 pm

  103. Thanks Mark, your comments, as always, speak for themselves. :-) And don’t be so down on yourself: you are a smart guy.

    Politics is paved with money. Environmental Smart Growth as a concept is oxymoronic, moronic and a lie.

    Water has always been an issue in the state of California. It would be a renewable resource, if the land were not so abused.

    The environmental policies in place are political policies do not take into account the truth about the limitations of land and resources.

    Comment by E T — August 5, 2009 @ 10:02 am


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