Monday, be ready for it Orchard Supply Hardware haters, the design review approval will be before the Planning Board. I had meant to clarify earlier than this whether the new “large format retail” ordinance (eg anything over 30K is big box and therefore requires a conditional use permit) would apply to OSH. Turns out, it doesn’t. Because the whole of Alameda Towne Centre has already been approved previously to build up to 650K sq ft of retail space and as long as OSH does not exceed that, no need for another level of approval, they just need to go through the design review process, which is what they will be doing on Monday.
However, here’s where it gets a little complicated, as part of this process, there is a Proposed Development Amendment that seeks to up the amount of square feet of retail allowed at ATC to a little less than 710K sq ft. What does that mean in building terms? About the size of two Bed, Bath, and Beyonds.
But, currently the OSH approval is still under that old 650K sq ft thresh hold.
The new Proposed Development Amendment also includes items like a possible second story on the old Mervyn’s building, which will now belong to Kohls. Of course, if approved, the new plans would have to go through another design review process. Other items include the possible parking garage which would be planted in front of Kohls on the Otis side. This garage could potentially reach about three stories high depending on the parking demand at ATC. Also this would allow for the potential development of waterfront retail sites (restaurants) and open space along the shoreline and the parking lot would be swapped with the current car wash site, which, I assume, means the car wash is going away.
For those who don’t care about all the planning mumbo jumbo, here are the pictures to look at. I have to say, slide 11 is one ugly looking blank wall, but I guess since it’s the backside, no one really cares what it looks like.
I know that some people have suggested moving Pagano’s into that site, but wouldn’t Pagano’s have already actively sought that the site if they had wanted it? After all, Target pulled out a while ago. I know some folks don’t like the idea of OSH moving in, but what have been alternate suggestions for tenants? Personally I’m more offended by the vacant building just sitting there than by the idea that an OSH store is moving in. Will I go there? Maybe. It would certainly reduce my need to go shopping to Home Depot, because while I like the idea of Pagano’s it’s simply too hard to navigate those tiny little aisles for me, makes me feel claustrophobic, but they do have a good selection of drip system attachments.
This won’t just affect Pagano’s and Encinal Hardware but Encinal Nursery and Thomsen’s Garden Center.
I really have no idea what the right answer is. I love pagano’s and Thomsen’s yet I still need things like wood etc which they really don’t have at Pagano’s. I hate the paint at Pagano’s so that would be another option for OSH over Home Depot. I will support local all I can and would definitely go to OSH over HD but is that enough?
I will stick to school issues and wait and see what those with more dedication to planning issues post before I figure out where I stand. ANT please give me your thoughts and maybe a link to a funny site, I need humor today….
Comment by Barbara M — July 11, 2008 @ 7:41 am
Better than the DressBarn thats going in around the corner, not sure how . . .but it is.
Comment by MarkD — July 11, 2008 @ 9:23 am
just a tidbit, Alameda and Measure H were mentioned in sports illustrated about high school sports being cut
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/andy_staples/07/10/schools.economy/index.html?eref=T1
Comment by Bob — July 11, 2008 @ 9:55 am
Is an urban blight analysis required? Just curious.
Comment by New-bee — July 11, 2008 @ 10:53 am
Since Alameda Towne Centre is a discount retail center, I would like to see us consolidate all of the discount type stores at one location. I would prefer to see Target go into the old Safeway building and find another location at ATC for OSH. With the proposed increase in square footage, they would possibly have space for both tenants. I realize we would have to revisit some of our previous decisions, but Alameda Towne Centre was envisioned to be mid- to upscale center and not the discount center it turned out to be.
We don’t need two discount centers on the island. By approving the Target supercenter at Alameda Landing, we are laying the groundwork for a second discount center in Alameda.
Also this strategic move will help fill up the vacant buildings at ATC with Kohls and Target and Borders as the anchor tenants.
It makes more sense to me to complete this retail development first before we start a second discount retail development project.
Comment by Karen Bey — July 11, 2008 @ 12:45 pm
Yeah … one more reason to stay on the island. I hate Home Depot.
Comment by Tay Tay Shaniqua — July 11, 2008 @ 2:47 pm
The Sports Illustrated article was an interesting read. The actual journalism makes Jeff Smith’s screed in the Journal seem as irrelevant as and off kilter as it is.
Comment by Mark Irons — July 11, 2008 @ 2:51 pm
Yep, I guess that’s the difference between journalism and truth.
Comment by Citizen X — July 11, 2008 @ 4:42 pm
I actually look forward to OSH, but would not like a Target. At one time I liked the Target idea, but than everything built here is discount. I also was for measure A…and after more information was against it…but now I am leaning more for measure A once again.
My problem is that the city is putting all the low income housing in one area. Alameda Point Collaborative Project, The Breakers, Shinsei Gardens and the old coast guard housing, and all the low cost apartments in the West end already…my experience is this is not a good thing…mix it up a little bit.
The only thing I am fairly certain about is Alameda is going to change drastically in the next 10 years, due to the approximatively to SF, the easy Commute (ferry), low crime, Measure H (school support), and fuel prices.
So back to my main point, I like the idea of OSH, but don’t want any more discount stores, but I am also my change my mind in the future if I think it is in the best interest of Alameda and selfishly “me”.
BTW - love the theater and parking garage.
High school sports…belongs on another thread although I did read the article.
Comment by Joel — July 11, 2008 @ 5:27 pm
Old #7 - I thought Jeff Smith’s “my Word” in the Journal was “spot-on” in terms of the BOE manipulating the vote by what they chose to sacrifice on the budget alter. I also think the BOE meeting on the budget cuts was manipulated to make it difficult for people to participate. It seems to me that there are those on the current BOE that feel it is their duty to manipulate the actions and votes of citizens by “massaging the truth” to illicit fear, and I find that abhorrent. There is a reason the voting age is 18, it is presumed that people of that age can use their own judgment. For the BOE to manipulate with fear and partial truths is undemocratic and immoral - just plain wrong.
On the other hand the law requires the truth to be provided, and in this case, those of us who are complaining and expressing anguish on the fear factor obviously did not do adequate investigation..
The budget and I assume past budgets including every expense warrant approved by the BOE is required to be made public. An interested party or group with enough time, can examine all the line item expenses, and can learn the State’s budget coding to get a much better picture of how AUSD $$ is being spent. Of course I am disappointed that this information is not ’spoon-fed’ to us for easy understanding the way other information was handled. In this case I don’t fault AUSD staff, as I believe the directives for how budget discussions were handled was the choice of the BOE. In fact I spoke to one of the members of a budget analysis committee put together during Dr Nashino’s reign. Sadly none of the recommendations of that committee were followed, but it was clear that part of that committee, now on the BOE was very much in favor of using fear to motivate voters. As far as I understand such a presentation of “massaged” financial standing is more fictional than truthful.
Where Jeff Smith and I differ is that I feel Measure H was insufficient, and too short-term. I would not be surprised if because of current trends, 2011 will put AUSD on a long line of tax proposals, with a smaller chance of approval. I won’t go into any of the other problems with the way Measure H was put together because I have already posted those ad nauseaum, suffice it to say it was unfair; to businesses in town, to residential parcels of unequal size and # of units, to the public because of the lack of discussion on the needs and goals of the tax, etc, etc.
While I agree with Mr. Smith that M-H was in conflict with the spirit of Prop 13, I say “Yes, of course, so what?” Alamedans feel more strongly about the value of education, and we demand a higher quality of education than is the common fare supported by the State in recent years. As I have posted, the schools are one of the major reasons we wanted to raise our family in Alameda. If we were not going to have a family with kids, we probably would not have moved to Alameda.
By balancing education funding throughout the State, Prop 13 lowered the funding in Alameda. It is not at all surprising that this community would continue to pursue the quality education Alameda has been known for. That actually includes much more than high grades. As a small close-knit community kids could get away with very little slacker behavior because someone would call you on it, (or call your parents) As the community grows we lose more of that, kids come to learn how much more they can get away with, and it becomes harder for families with both parents working to instill good character in their kids without the support of schools and the community at large.
Wow – I really wandered off the thread – getting to OSH, well it’s easy to get to OSH – they’re all over the place, but why go there from Alameda?
It is ludicrous to think that our family hardware stores would not financially suffer if an OSH opened at South Shore – that is mindless blathe, who do you think would shop there? My guess is the shoppers who would otherwise be meeting their needs locally. Of course local nurseries would suffer, and a host of other retailers too. We could lose 5 or 6 local businesses as the same # of sales move from existing community retailers to an OSH which would not draw additional sales from off the island. There are too many OSH’s around for people to come all the way to Alameda for an OSH, so Alame3da would be the OSH supporters. And if OSH offers lower prices to ‘off’ their competition, then the other result is lower sales tax revenue for the City coffers too.
And for anyone trying to save money by DIY painting projects as opposed to hiring a pro – ALWAYS buy the best material you can. Usually painting jobs are only 20 – 25% material cost. If you are going to pay for labor, or invest your own labor, pay for the material that will last the longest. I would not buy paint at OSH. As a painting professional (or ex-painter, CA license C33- #713439), take my advice, and I almost always used MARK’S Paint, here in Alameda, in the center next to the Park St Bridge.
Comment by David Kirwin — July 11, 2008 @ 6:18 pm
I’m looking forward to OSH opening. Paganos is okay, but limited. Will Paganos survive? That will depend upon what the owners of Paganos do. Perhaps if they expanded their hiring pool beyond 50-plus white males, they might attract a wider clientele. Alameda doesn’t have a Soviet-style central economy. Property owners can lease their property as they see fit and merchants can conduct business without government approval as long as they comply with reasonable guidelines. We don’t need Big Brother telling us who can set up shop here and who can’t.
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 11, 2008 @ 7:32 pm
“Perhaps if they expanded their hiring pool beyond 50-plus white males,”
You obviously don’t shop there unless you just posted this for some malicious goal.
Comment by David Kirwin — July 11, 2008 @ 8:19 pm
OSH competes directly with Encinal Hardware and Pagano’s.
That whole section along Lincoln Ave where Pagano’s is, from St Charles to Sherman St, all those shops are heavily dependent upon the traffic Pagano’s brings in.
When OSH kills Pagano’s, along with it will go all the surrounding neighborhood businesses (think El Caballo Wraps).
Will Alameda get more tax revenue? In a word, No. It’ll just get Encinal and Pagano’s share. And when Encinal and Pagano’s die, the surrounding neighborhood shops (think pharmacy) will lose business and die as well, further depleting sales tax revenue for Alameda (not to mention ruining those businesses and the lives of those hometown Alamedans who own them).
Comment by AAA — July 11, 2008 @ 8:20 pm
“Personally I’m more offended by the vacant building just sitting there than by the idea that an OSH store is moving in. Will I go there? Maybe.”
How offended would we all be if that entire neighborhood business district supported by Pagano’s dies off? Imagine all those small stores supported by foot traffic from Pagano’s closing up shop.
That’s a lot of vacant storefront.
Comment by AAA — July 11, 2008 @ 8:29 pm
#12
I’ve shopped there for 20 years: Paint, plumbing, electric, tool room, garden tools, limited lumber, limited screen room upstairs. I call ‘em as I see ‘em.
Consider it constructive criticism.
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 11, 2008 @ 8:31 pm
#14
Or perhaps Pagano’s might improve because of the competition. Business is dying off on Webster — three shops closed in one week. Should we limit new stores on Park Street so that they don’t compete with Webster?
In any case, “we” can’t keep OSH out. People have the freedom to shop where they wish.
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 11, 2008 @ 8:46 pm
“Property owners can lease their property as they see fit and merchants can conduct business without government approval as long as they comply with reasonable guidelines. We don’t need Big Brother telling us who can set up shop here and who can’t.”
This is precisely what Walmart argues every single time they butt heads with city councils all over America.
And every single time Walmart wins, they absolutely dominate the local market by completely destroying local businesses.
I’m sorry, but it’s no longer fair competition when you’re able to muscle out any and all other competition by way of tremendously deep pockets.
Make no mistake, OSH’s number one goal in its first few years in Alameda will be to kill off local competition (Encinal and Pagano’s). Profit will be a secondary priority, because OSH knows they will have the next couple of decades to make up for the first 3-5 years it will take to kill off local hardware stores.
This isn’t fair competition. It’s not a fair race. It’s killing the sprinters before they are able to get to the track to compete.
Comment by AAA — July 11, 2008 @ 8:47 pm
“Business is dying off on Webster — three shops closed in one week. Should we limit new stores on Park Street so that they don’t compete with Webster? ”
This isn’t about small local stores competing with other local stores. That would be fair competition. That would be encouraged and applauded.
This is about small local stores competing with huge national and international billion dollar chain stores.
There’s something inherently wrong with watching a national corporate giant with hundreds of billions of dollars in yearly revenues essentially club to death local businesses.
Something about that screams foul play.
Why do you think cities across America have joined to ban the Walmarts of corporate America?
Can’t quite put my finger on what exactly is wrong with it, but something definitely stinks.
Within this century and the next, as economists predict, America will consist of a handful of huge billion dollar corporations that own everything.
Local small town stores have a snowball’s chance in Hades against them.
That is, unless we the people unite to protect our cherished local businesses.
Comment by AAA — July 11, 2008 @ 9:02 pm
#15 ANT - ?!
When I’m there, and I am often, I see more women employees than male employees. (The same can be said for Encinal Hardware) The women employees at Pagano’s include Asian, Black and Mexican as well as Caucasian.
If you’re gonna “call ‘em as ya see ‘em” I urge you to open yer eyes and speak truthfully.
I will agree that as far as department leads, there are more men than women, (if you do not include the Pagano’s Annex down the street), and they aren’t kids – and they have the knowledge and friendly attitude to always be able to help, defiantly characteristics not found at big box stores, except during the first 3-6 months after opening.
Comment by David Kirwin — July 11, 2008 @ 9:54 pm
” Perhaps if they expanded their hiring pool beyond 50-plus white males, they might attract a wider clientele.”
Yeah! They should hire more unqualified black thugs with no customer service skills from Oakland like Home Depot does. After all, we don’t want any nice, helpful, and knowledgeable white guys around these parts.
Comment by Tay Tay Shaniqua — July 11, 2008 @ 10:35 pm
#19
I was referring to the sales people. It isn’t a business secret that if you want to draw customers from different age and ethnic groups that you have a sales staff that reflects that diversity. It was meant to be constructive criticism. I am a frequent customer and have spent a small fortune there over the years.
There are also other areas in which Paganos needs to improve such as stock, price, parking and store layout.
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 12, 2008 @ 7:02 am
The Paganos store was sold recently and I hear Andy Pagano (original owner of Paganos) has died. Perhaps the Pagano family saw it coming and sold.
I think OSH will be good for Alameda. It will certainly capture alot of the Home Depot leakage in Oakland, San Leandro and Emmeryville. However, the one thing I object to is their (OSH) desire to have a garden center. We have three very wonderfull nurseries - Thompsons, Encinal and the new one on Main Street.
I agree we need to limit the number of big box stores in Alameda. It’s important for Alameda’s economic development to have some, but we need to limit their numbers so as not to destroy our small town feel. Its really what makes Alameda special. Areas like Rockridge, Piedmont, Elmwood, North Berkeley, the Gourmet Ghetto, 4th Street are all very popular areas and what makes them special are the gourmet food stores, the specialty shops, the cafes and coffee shops, the quaint restaurants. People flock to those areas on the week-end and Alameda has great potential for this type of retail in Alameda on Park Street and Webster Street if we plan carefully, and not TRASH the Island with too many discount stores.
I’d like to see us do another Citywide Retail Visioning — so we can look at what we’ve accomplished, what we want going forward, what mistakes were made, what can we do differently, etc. The first visioning we did was in 2004 and we need an update.
Comment by Karen Bey — July 12, 2008 @ 7:51 am
I while back we had a Harsh rep on here speaking on their tenant mix, and it was my understadning that they were trying to cover a wide range of income levels in one shopping center, which i still don’t understand, either way, it is obivous that they’ve got the low-end niche down. I guess this would be a good time for him to come back and explain how they plan to cover the high(er) income brackets. Mike Corbitt, are you around?
Comment by MarkD — July 12, 2008 @ 9:05 am
I think its too late for Alameda Towne Centre. Chicos, The Gap, Banana Republic, New York Jones all of those stores were sought after I understand, but those stores don’t go into discount centers. With retail, its either discount or not.
Comment by Karen Bey — July 12, 2008 @ 9:13 am
“I had meant to clarify earlier than this whether the new “large format retail” ordinance (eg anything over 30K is big box and therefore requires a conditional use permit) would apply to OSH.”
Lauren - wasn’t this the topic of a recent previous thread?
Didn’t everyone realize the 30k sf threshold for ‘big box format’ was basically pointless rhetoric for now - because it excluded South Shore and redevelopment areas like Alameda Landing, the Point, etc? (Seems like any place a big box could be built is excluded from this requirement…)
Could you perhaps post a link to that thread with this discussion? I tend to forget many details without reviewing the past discussions. Thanks.
Comment by David Kirwin — July 12, 2008 @ 9:38 am
David K:
Here you go!
Comment by Lauren Do — July 12, 2008 @ 9:45 am
#21 ANT - Perhaps there is a reason Pagano’s has their older, more experienced workers dealing with the public in the departments where their experience is most useful in assisting customers. Having their younger less experienced workers stocking the store and running the register’s is a way the younger, more diverse employees can learn.
As an aside, I have always thought that the decision of public education to remove the trades education from high school was another huge factor in widening the “achievement gap”, not just on a race basis, but clearly there are different types of people and a good portion of student populations are interested in ‘things’, as opposed to “academic concepts.” Without educating part of our student population on trade work, who will build and maintain all of societies facilities? Haven’t you noticed a reduction in the quality of workmanship in almost every area over the last decades?
Comment by David Kirwin — July 12, 2008 @ 9:54 am
I would love an OSH in town to save the gas involved in driving to San Leandro (#10: If there is a lcoser OSH, please let us know. I personally do not consider San Leandro to be convenient). OSH has things that the local hardware stores don’t. They have a larger selection of power tools and lumber, for example. Ditto larger plumbing fixtures. Sales tax on such items would bring additional revenue to Alameda. I think the local company that would lose the most if OSH were to locate here is Home Depot, and I don’t think any Alamedans would be crying about that.
I’m tired of all the raves about Pagano’s. It is a fire trap, and I wonder how it passes fire codes. When two people cannot pass each other in an aisle, you know something isn’t right. Also, I have found the male employees to be condescending. Pagano’s has its place, though. They have things that you can’t find anywhere else (including OSH). Someone from Macy’s in Oakland actually referred me to Pagano’s for something Macy’s didn’t have (a housewares item). I’m not sure OSH would kill Pagano’s. Everyone said HD would do the same thing, and yet, Pagano’s is still there.
I like Encinal Nursery, but it would be nice to have a lower-priced alternative for workhorse plants and soil amendments other than Home Depot since Encinal’s prices for common plants (particularly one-gallon sizes) are pretty high these days. Again, Encinal still has its niche, as people are not going to be buying $300 Japanese maples at OSH. But I would rather buy my impatiens and Christmas cyclamens (and pay sales tax) in Alameda at OSH than at Home Depot.
Thomsen’s has an entirely different atmosphere and attracts a different crowd than OSH would. It’s lovely, and the birds are a nice touch, and you can have a latte. OSH isn’t going to provide that.
Although OSH has decent prices, I don’t think of it as a low-budget store like Old Navy and Anna’s Linens and and Payless Shoes and the other tacky stores at Towney Centrey. I think OSH would be a positive addition to Alameda and to the Harsch shopping center.
Comment by Different View — July 12, 2008 @ 9:59 am
#27
Looks like we agree on something. Education in the trades is essential. Believe it or not, some junior high schools (aka middle schools) used to provide education in the trades. I don’t know what sales people make at hardware stores, but it is probably a lot less than someone in the skilled trades.
If you are curious, check out what kids used to learn in junior high school.
http://www.archive.org/details/junior_high_schools_in_nyc
Comment by AlamedaNayTiff — July 12, 2008 @ 10:12 am
Here we go again making assumptions not based on asking the source. The “new” owner of Pagano’s has been running the show for at least 6 years now, my understanding is that the owner had worked there for decades before buying the shop. he was the heir apparent. They expanded to an additional shop “down the street,” they own yet another similar shop in SF, yes, SF, and they own Patricia’s Pantry in the Marketplace. The owner of Pagano’s, while concerned, does not think OSH will spell the doom of the local hardware store. According to him, OSH opened in El Cerrito and San Leandro near established local hardware stores. Apparently it’s not the locals who are suffering, but OSH. Again, try getting some real facts before you all spin out of control up here. Measure H is aparrently more likely to put Pagano’s out of business than OSH.
Comment by EJK — July 12, 2008 @ 11:40 am
#30 - You made a really good point, but you blew it at the end when you added, “Measure H is aparrently more likely to put Pagano’s out of business than OSH.”
In keeping with your own standard you need to provide some “real facts” to back up this statement or retract it if you were just being inflammatory.
Comment by Pot Calling the Kettle — July 12, 2008 @ 2:22 pm
The owner of Pagano’s is more concerned about the impact of Measure H than OSH. Ask him yourself.
Comment by EJK — July 12, 2008 @ 2:37 pm
The owner of Pagano’s is more concerned about the impact of Measure H on his business than OSH. Ask him yourself.
Comment by EJK — July 12, 2008 @ 2:38 pm
#30
I thought EJK’s point was very clear. Pagano’s has to pay for MA and gets nothing in return. More small businesses are ruined by high taxes than competition. You can drop your prices to meet competition. Try that to pay your taxes.
Comment by Citizen X — July 12, 2008 @ 3:15 pm
Although I have nothing against people shopping at Pagano’s for paint, I have never done so because there is another local alternative: Mark’s Paint on Blanding. Since Gibson Paint in Oakland stopped making paint, we have purchased all of our paint at Mark’s.
I do not want OSH in Alameda.
Comment by Kevis Brownson — July 13, 2008 @ 12:19 am
Lauren - Thanks for the link in #26. Now I remember all the opinions on the “Alameda big box ordinance” thread from June 24th.
Comment by David Kirwin — July 13, 2008 @ 1:17 pm
I shop at the local hardware and gardening outlets (Encinal nursery is a favorite) but I also do quite a bit of shopping at Home Depot and it would be good if we could keep my money on the Island. If the footprint is the same as the old Safeway count me as a supporter.
Comment by Mike Rich — July 13, 2008 @ 5:58 pm
Mike - I’d like to know…
Why do you shop at Home Depot?
Now, why would an Alameda OSH change what ever reason you just gave yourself for shopping at Home Depot?
Home Depot is still going to beat the OSH prices and selection.
Local hardware stores will still beat OSH for knowledgeable customer service, and in most cases for convenience.
For the types of things I buy at Home Depot, I will still go to Home Depot.
I would never feel any loyalty to a big box no matter where it is located.
Comment by David Kirwin — July 13, 2008 @ 7:31 pm
Hi David,
Where I shop is informed somewhat by logical considerations, but I must admit that I hadn’t considered your questions as a threshold. After reading your questions I still think OSH would be fine, using the same (lack of) logical analysis I used to shop where I do now. I think a lot of people shop that way.
Comment by Mike Rich — July 13, 2008 @ 8:23 pm
Mike,
Please restate #39 in elementary english so that I may understand what you mean.
Comment by David Kirwin — July 13, 2008 @ 9:01 pm
David,
I don’t think about where I shop that much, at least not in the way you are asking your questions, so I don’t have answers for you. I think a lot of people are like me in that regard. My intuitive, non-analytical feeling is that I would shop at OSH if it were at ATC.
Comment by Michael Rich — July 14, 2008 @ 2:23 pm
David,
I think the point Mr. Rich is making is that currently we have local choices of either (1) a really cheap place you don’t actually want to go to and where the sales tax doesn’t go to Alameda (Home Depot) or (2) rather pricy local independent stores. OSH would be more in the middle, and the middle is where a lot of people are comfortable shopping.
Comment by Jill — July 15, 2008 @ 10:21 pm
So does anyone know how the meeting went with the city council? Are we getting a new Orchard Supply?
Comment by Katie — July 16, 2008 @ 7:37 am
There is an update here by Michele Ellson
Comment by Lauren Do — July 16, 2008 @ 7:44 am
Since I live on Oak at the lagoon and have had a front seat to the mall revamp I consider this my issue whether I like it or not. I watched the previous item at PB being discussed and then caught most of staff on the mall, but missed most of the public speaking by flipping channels. This was the planning board Monday and not council last night.
Andrew Thomas did state that the board could proceed with voting on this project or wait to discuss it in the context of the next item which was a broader PDA item, (that’s “planned development amendment”? Shucks, my memory sucks.) I actually tuned out before the vote or the next item, but did see the building presentation and a little discussion of OSH as a tenant. Andrew stated something like the PB could discuss the building and site without directly deciding if OSH is the best tenant. He then went on to say that there had been a survey of the impacts of OSH on Pagano’s and Encinal Hardware and the nurseries. The survey supposedly predicted compatibility in having OSH on the island.
I have to say that I would shop OSH hardware instead of Home Depot for the little traffic HD gets from me.
I would buy mulch there or an occasional small tool. Since the mall is so close Encinal Hardware might loose the $75 a year in nuts and bolts they get from me also, unless I decided to bike there is loyalty to local business. I just spoke with Iris at Thompson’s Nursery about my awful yard and I will continue to buy actual plants locally because I need a relationship with people who can coach me and I like giving them my business on the plants as part of that trade.
The long and short for me is that I began to think that OSH might languish before it kills the local businesses and it is a better physical fit for the mall than Target. I’ve been listening to what Karen Bey has had to say about the landing and the Centre swapping tenants and don’t know what to say to that. This opinion is my hunch, based on accepting the survey as valid. I claim no deep wisdom here.
Comment by Mark Irons — July 16, 2008 @ 8:43 am
Have to admit… OSH bothers me far less than a Target at Southshore, for whatever that’s worth.
Comment by Jack B — July 16, 2008 @ 9:18 am
The Measure H parcel tax really does have a huge impact on our local small businesses. The concerns made by the business community in the papers shortly before the election was a legitmate one.
Comment by E T — July 16, 2008 @ 11:21 am
ET, Regarding Measure H and so what are we to do with that fact for the next 4 years, where wool shorts and whip ourselves?
For myself, I will probably make myself ride to Encinal Hardware and pay $1.50 for a plastic plumbing part which I can get for $.85 at OSH, or if I drive to over the bridge to East 12th street I can pay $.55 at American Emperor, but that’s a waste of time and gas which is why I am happy to pay $1.50.
BUT if I do a large job, not my own house, and use 50 fittings, you know I can’t be competitive and go to OSH or Encinal.
While I’m on hardware, I wanted to direct somebody who asked where to go if not Home Depot? Try a real lumber yard like Economy on High Street, where you don’t wheel lumber around on a shopping cart and you get a BETTER price and BETTER quality.
Many places like Home Depot have what is called a loss leader, like copper pipe they sell at cost to get you to think you are saving money on their over priced fittings. American Emperor or Economy have a uniform price index.
Back in the El Nino when everybody’s basement flooded, I needed sump equipment. OSH had the only decent sump pumps anywhere for my purpose ,including Grainger. The great thing was that Encinal Hardware had a better quality flexible sump hose than Home Depot AND for less money!
Comment by Mark Irons — July 16, 2008 @ 8:13 pm
Mark,
I can’t imagine any contractor could find a better deal and selection of pumps that at Grainger. They have a selection of hundreds and hundreds of pumps at great prices and I get free shipping from them or will-call. Orders usually arrive within 24 hours. I just bought a little submersible 12 volt marine bilge pump for our little waterfall that oxygenates the fish pond. It works on a little solar panel and cost under $20 at Grainger. It pushes about 500 gph @ 0 ft head. I get a bit under that pushing 10’ of ¾” line up 3-4’. I had also bought 120volt submersibles for $70 that pushes 1800 - 2000 gph. I like these little ‘RULE” pumps because of their automatic, overheat protection (so they are “plug and play”), and the impeller strainers are a ’snap’ to clean. I had installed a couple of these out here on Bay Farm during the storms a few years ago with an adapter to a 1.25″ drain line.
I would guess that OSH gave you some options of which size float-controlled sump w/ cast pot-metal housing you could buy. I imagine you would have spent $30 -40 for it, had more install labor, and they probably no longer work unless you have put in additional maintenance time. Am I close to right on?
Comment by Dave Kirwin — July 16, 2008 @ 11:34 pm
DK,
Maybe I lost my Grainger catalogue that winter. All I remember is that the pumps which worked were from OSH and I couldn’t find ones which were satisfactory for my use anywhere else. I think it may have been configuration because I had height restrictions with the box I sank into my floor which housed the. Actually the float mechanism was also an issue. Maybe it was stock? Actually, who cares?
I used these pumps to drain some six foot pier holes which had to be filled with concrete but kept filling with ground water. I turned my back and they ran dry and got very hot at one point because the float valves were caught in the dirt. They are back in my basement where when the water table is up they cycle like crazy, but they haven’t died yet. When ones floor is flooding the priority can become, I need a pump which works in the next hour and to hell with the details.
What was my original point? Oh yeah, I think it was that OSH is a particularly handy place sometimes, as is Grainger, and that one can never assume a “discount store” like Home Depot will have the rock bottom prices.
Congratulations on your great success finding such a perfect pump for your use. I hope keeping your waterfall wet in the drought does not become a problem.
Comment by Mark Irons — July 17, 2008 @ 9:00 am