Turning the tables
Can I just say how much I am loving the exchange that has been going on the past few days on Alameda Daily News? Not the stuff about the Alameda Police Department and recent protest — what’s there to say other than to give the protesters the big eye roll? But the letters going back and forth regarding Greening Alameda Point, “Measure A absolutists,” and the low income housing tooth fairy. It’s like the old Alameda Daily News is back, before the press release fillers and the predictions by Les Grosscup and subsequent posts of failure to correctly predict. For those that do not know what I am talking about, let me explain. On the Saturday post Thanksgiving, Action Alameda wunderkind David Howard posted a triumphant letter setting Action Alameda up as the choice for a new generation, the middle ground that we all could select to support. Between the continuum of HOMES on one end and Keep Measure A on the other, they stood squarely in the middle of it all. Full post because you all know the drill about ADN not archiving:
Update on Alameda’s Housing Density Limiting Measure A
Don,
Thanksgiving was early this year, and between now and the new year, not much will happen with regards to Measure A until the Planning Board sponsored 8-hour marathon forum in January or February. I thought it might be timely to summarize the program going into the Holiday Hiatus:
KeepMeasureA Committee: The sponsors of the KeepMeasureA red and white signs on lawns throughout Alameda. Measure A absolutists, as exemplified by former councilmember Barbara Kerr. Ms. Kerr stands in opposition even to mildly higher density at select sites in accordance with the existing state density bonus law, to provide housing for low-income people, and smaller, presumably lower-cost, market rate homes.
H.O.M.E.S.: Advocates an exemption from Measure A for Alameda Point. Seems to favor NO limits whatsoever on development in growth in Alameda. At the recent Measure A debate, HOMES advocated San Francisco-style density of 50, 60 or 70 homes per acre of land. Yet somehow, despite the countless cumulative years of land use, development and planning experience, not to mention Naval Air Station Alameda base-closure experience, among the HOMES executive board and sympathizers on the City Planning and Transportation Boards, H.O.M.E.S. is STILL unable to provide a specific suggestion as to the number of homes they think Alameda can absorb at Alameda Point.
Action Alameda: Has published the whitepaper entitled “Greening Alameda Point,” in which we advocate a cap on the number of homes on Alameda Point in the amount of 1800 units, in accordance with the 2006 Preliminary Development Concept, and a maximum, at case-by-case determined selected sites - where genuine low-income housing is provided, of 30 homes per acre, in accordance with the pre-existing California state density bonus law. The rest of the land may be used for businesses and light industry to create jobs and sustainable infrastructure for all of Alameda.It should be clear that Action Alameda provides a reasonable compromise - a third way - between the two extremes of the KeepMeasureA Committee and HOMES. We can have many of the wonderful mixed-use experiences that H.O.M.E.S. promises in their slide presentation - cafes, restaurants, shopping, transit, walk-to-work and so on - without turning our city into a vehicular nightmare, simply by allowing the Alameda Point master developer to exercise the density bonus law. We can have a wonderful community on Alameda Point without tearing up the town with the expense and trouble of a ballot measure on Measure A. Let’s get going on Alameda Point!
David Howard
And then, Dorothy Freeman steps in on Monday to denounce David Howard’s characterization of “Measure A absolutist”:
Dorothy Freeman Responds to David Howard
Don,
I would like to take issue with David Howard and his attack on those of us he referred to as “absolutists”, those of us who support Measure A as the law is written. I also take offence at his caricature of Barbara Kerr. Ms. Kerr has worked hard for Alameda and continues to do so. She is tirelessly working to support a large constituency who believe Measure A has been good for Alameda and will continue to be. I would also like to remind readers that there are no villains in this issue, just different opinions and people working to support their viewpoint. This issue will be decided by the people of Alameda.
Measure A does not fail “to provide housing for low-income people, and smaller, presumably lower-cost, market rate homes”. That is an issue between developers, the Planning Board, and City Council. I would like to remind Mr. Howard that “genuine low-income housing” is a misnomer since low income housing is only possible in the urban areas of California when supported by subsidies provided by developers and/or city, state, and federal governments. It doesn’t matter if there are 1800 units or 5000 units built in Alameda Point. Low and moderate income families will not be able to afford to buy any of the units that will be built in Alameda Point without financial help. Unfortunately, this is a fact of life, and not a problem created by Measure A. As documented by Ms. Kerr, Measure A actually saved low cost housing as developers were buying up the smaller, cheaper housing to build apartment buildings in their place.
David Howard’s “Greening Alameda Point” document contains some ideas that are worthy of consideration, but they are in no way the only way. Measure A does not limit anything except the number of units per building and the minimum size of the land per unit. Measure A supports medium density housing, mixed use and public transit. Measure A also supports smaller unit sizes since the “size” of the unit is not restricted by Measure A.
Dorothy Freeman
And then David Howard goes back on the defensive with this response:
David Howard Responds to Dorothy Freeman:
Don,
“Greening Alameda Point” in no way promotes a change or exemption to Measure A, and I very clearly presented it as an alternative - a third way - to established positions, and by no means the “only way.” In fact, the paper articulates a way to have what people like about H.O.M.E.S.’s vision (transit-oriented-development, mixed-use, sustainability etc.) WITHOUT changing Measure A or exempting Alameda Point from Measure A, within the bounds of existing law, and while still keeping a limit on development in Alameda. H.O.M.E.S. would seem to favor NO limits on development in Alameda. I encourage people to read the document themselves, here: http://www.actionalameda.org/Media/Greening_Alameda_Point.pdf
Dorothy Freeman is absolutely right - low-income people need subsidies to buy a home. The way the California state density bonus law provides those subsidies is that it allows builders to provide more market-rate homes to subsidize the low-income homes they are required to build. The people that pay full price for market-rate homes subsidize the low-income people that pay less than full price. The homeowners at Bayport, paying $700K to $1M per house, subsidized the buyers of the low-income Bayport townhouses (The Landing) who paid somewhere between $200K and $300K per home. That’s how it works. I explained this at the Twin Towers Measure A Debate - you can see and hear the presentation here: http://www.actionalameda.org/photo_gallery/photo_gallery.htm
As for the so-called “attack” on Barbara Kerr, it really is a shame that in our town, the mere mention of an individual’s name in association with the ideas they promulgate is almost invariably characterized as a “personal attack.” Why is it automatically a personal attack to identify a person’s position in association with their name? Ideas don’t exist in a vacuum in isolation from their creators. At the next public forum, shall we all wear costumes that disguise our identity fo separate our selves from our ideas? Of course not, that’s absolutely ridiculous.
I appreciate and applaud Barbara Kerr’s tireless service to our community, past, present and future. But I don’t see how it’s an attack to identify her name and and her position in the same paragraph. If I mis-characterized her position, which I don’t believe I did, then let her step forward and clarify, as I have no doubt she will.
It’s clear - to date there are three competing visions for Alameda Point, that of the Keep Measure A Committee, that of H.O.M.E.S. and that of Action Alameda. Soon there will be one or two from SunCal. If there’s another that comes forth, I welcome it.
David Howard
But Barbara Kerr is allowed the last word on Wednesday:
There is No Tooth Fairy for Lower Priced Housing
Don,
I am not a member of the Keep Measure A group, so it is inaccurate for David Howard to attribute my remarks to other people.
David has fallen prey to the HOMES myth that high density equals affordable housing. I suggest that your readers tour the Oakland loft section near the AMTRAK station. These buildings illustrate that builders design their projects to get the highest possible rent or selling price for their units.
When it comes to lower priced housing, there is no tooth fairy.
Barbara Kerr
Here’s what I find fascinating. Something as small as a nuance in how far you support Measure A can cause a rift between folks who generally are allies in everything else Alameda. And my my my, when the shoe is on the other foot, how quickly we (and by “we” I’m not talking about the royal “we”) get so defensive. When confronted by Dorothy F. as “attacking” hard core supporters of Measure A, David H. had this to say:
…As for the so-called “attack” on Barbara Kerr, it really is a shame that in our town, the mere mention of an individual’s name in association with the ideas they promulgate is almost invariably characterized as a “personal attack.” Why is it automatically a personal attack to identify a person’s position in association with their name? Ideas don’t exist in a vacuum in isolation from their creators. At the next public forum, shall we all wear costumes that disguise our identity fo separate our selves from our ideas? Of course not, that’s absolutely ridiculous…
Hmmm….now why does that sound so familiar? Oh yes, because during the last election any critique of a candidates’ past acts, their own words and pronouncements were denounced as a “personal attack.” One of the few times I’ll agree with David H. and hope that he shares that sentiment with some of his political colleagues.
On the same subject though, Stop, Drop, and Roll has an extensive post on the issue that Action Alameda or just David H. is touting, since he is the only one that is identified with Action Alameda these days and it’s not as though the report has a list of authors or even a listing of the AA Board Members, but I digress. State mandated density housing bonus is Greening Alameda Point’s current cure all for leaving Measure A alone, excerpt from SDR:
…Essentially, this law allows any developer to increase the density of any given project above limits set by any city (Charter City or not).
This is one of the most anti-planning laws around. It exists because a lot of cities (even one’s that aren’t islands) have been passing laws that make building affordable housing difficult, so the state stepped in to ease the burden…
Is giving up a substantial portion of local control worth it in order to preserve Measure A at all costs? I don’t think so.
It is ironic that David Howard, who claims to wear the crown of local control (witness the “issues” he has tried to promote on kitchen democracy) has come up with the one solution that strips control from the local jurisdiction. I also enjoy the pretzel contortions he and his cheerleaders (including David Kirwin) are going through to say that over riding the density limits of measure A by granting a bonus does not constitute a change to measure A.
At least Howard and HOMES now have two things in common - they both are promoting an exemption to measure A, although through different means, and they have both earned the wrath of Kerr.
Comment by notadave — November 29, 2007 @ 7:33 am
DH’s position has been clear and consistent all along… he really really really really really really doesn’t like JKW.
Comment by Jack B. — November 29, 2007 @ 8:02 am
Here’s the problem with subsidies. Assuming that homeowners will perennially pay 700k to 1M for homes in Bayport and then assuming that this amount will provide headway for placing a dollar amount on low income housing in direct correlation would be inaccurate and non-plausible.
While many of you who did buy in Bay port probably don’t want to hear this, the homes you paid 700k-1M for are going to be worth anywhere from 2-400k less within 3-5 years depending one what model you bought than what you paid for it.But at the same time, “low income” prices will probably stay closer to the intended target of around 2-300k. ( whoever in the hell thinks 2-300k is low income needs to have their head examined) but by any means,perhaps I am misunderstanding the relation between subsidies and low income housing, but I don’t think tying these subsidies to the private sector is the correct route to take.
But by any account, the current market will create a delta between these two values: one remaining more static, the other falling perhaps significantly, which in turn makes those low income houses more expensive… which in turn makes them less appetizing for developers.It’s like a vicious circle.
Secondly, a report came out on Monday mentioning the loss in tax revenue per state as a result of up-to-date property devaluation. So far, California is the winner coming in at over 8.5 Billion dollars thus far in lost tax gains. So this will also create a problem when it comes to government subsidies for lower income housing let alone keeping all the schools open and the fire dept paid.
This all boils back down to one exceedingly simple solution,which would be to allow growth to occur via pure economic free market forces. Of course it will cause more people to move here and the density to grow, but even so, I don’t think that anyone here will dispute the fact that no matter how expensive homes become, people will continue to move here regardless and find ways to build houses. The question is how painful should we make it for future citizens and how much time do measures like MA buy?
Comment by edvard — November 29, 2007 @ 9:00 am
Re. # 3
For such an exceedingly simple solution, it sure was hard for me get there
Comment by Jack Richard — November 29, 2007 @ 5:04 pm
Edvard; Sorry but I have to disagree with your comment about the homes at Bayport, dropping in price by $200,000. to 400,000. in the next 3 to 5 years. I will literally eat the hat that I wear each day because I am A “bald” contractor.
In your last paragraph you state that people will come here no matter what and I agree with you, and that means the Bayport homes will do just fine.
Laurendo you have my word on that. Jjohn P.
Comment by john piziali — November 29, 2007 @ 7:18 pm
Edward,
I do appreciate your opinion, but I have to disagree about Bayport. Our house has gone up in value by $200k, and I haven’t checked for awhile but I don’t believe there are any unsold plans of our model. A real estate broker told us as soon as they finish selling the last few unbuilt lots we should see even more of a price increase because there is still a lot of demand and won’t be any more supply. I know of no one who has lost money here…although someone may have. Bayport, was and is still a bargain, where else in the Bay Area will you find a comparable house 11 miles from SF in a new development at this price…no where. It may drop some in the next few years, but I highly doubt it…anyway we are here for the long run.
If you would have had foresight to buy here 3 years ago…you could have made a handsome profit, and I actually believe you still can. Great neighborhood, great people.
Comment by Joel — November 29, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
The tip of Alameda Point is actually in San Francisco. SF could probably build a 100 story highrise there and I doubt that Alameda could do much about it.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — November 29, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
Pardon me, because I’m not sure, but I don’t think the future price of Bayport homes was the point edvard was trying to make. If I read his post correctly, future Bayport prices were an example of overall real estate inflated prices. And his point was (please correct me when I’m wrong edvard), subsidized housing is pegged to currently inflated prices of real estate. Once the bottom falls out of the inflated prices of real estate and the prices reflect true value, the price of subsidized housing will not deflate because they don’t reflect true market values. Consequently, California may be in deep doo doo trying to maintain the subsidy for subsidized housing.
Comment by Jack Richard — November 29, 2007 @ 8:02 pm
Thanks ANT. That’s my dream, a wall of million dollar high rise living spaces at the tip of the point. Alameda would rule the Bay. Where is Dubai when we need her?
Comment by Jack Richard — November 29, 2007 @ 8:06 pm
Silly ANT - None of Alameda is in San Francisco.
Jack - I like looking at Sf from the tranquility of Alameda. If I wanted to live amongst the high rises I would move there.
Eddie – what state is the winner in most future tax revenues owed to re-pay redevelopment bonds used to benefit private companies for unneeded pet projects that never were on a public ballot? Ca is weighing in at over $250 billion – put that in your education and drink the kool-aid.
David Howard has shown that even WITH Measure ‘A’ there are already State regulations on housing to increase the MA compliant 22 units per acre to over 30 units per acre if the development meets State affordable housing standards for the increased density. It has long been a contention of H.O.M.E.S. and others that high density is required for affordable housing. David Howard is showing that reason is already served without a change to Measure A. I don’t think the city planners or HOMES really want more affordable housing, I think that was another red herring. There is nothing new with what Howard presented – I am sure all the developers are well aware of State regulations.
Comment by David Kirwin — November 29, 2007 @ 9:56 pm
Silly Kirwin - look closer at a map - the last few feet of the point extend into San Francisco County.
I know this is asking a lot of you, but do your homework before spouting more of your rants, and quit with the red herring already, I really have had enough of you popping in, spouting lies, and then not hanging around to defend them. You consistently misrepresent HOMES position, so stop trying.
Regarding the density bonus that you and howard are now championing. It is an exemption from measure A - don’t call it anything different. If HOMES asks for an exemption you villify them. If howard asks for an exemption you praise him - what’s up with that?
If the density bonus is invoked, it also overrides other local controls around architectural design, parking, etc. and can demand more incentives. Plain and simple, invoking the density bonus takes away a large portion of local control. It is a developers dream. If I was a conspiracy theorist like some folks around here, I would wonder if the folks that are really in the developers pockets weren’t kirwin and howard, for proposing such a developer friendly alternative.
Comment by notadave — November 30, 2007 @ 8:07 am
The tip of Alameda Point falls within the County of San Francisco, its on the maps. John P.
Comment by john piziali — November 30, 2007 @ 8:11 am
Actually, I think that it is over 100 acres of the Point that are in San Francisco. If you look at this map, the area appears to be about half that of Yerba Buena Island. I guess that enough landfill was dumped out there that it extended into San Francisco
http://www.city-data.com/zips/94130.html
Comment by alamedanaytiff — November 30, 2007 @ 8:53 am
# 10
David, who the hell would want to live in San Francisco to look at the tranquillity of Alameda. But you could bet your bottom dollar the opposite would bring in millions. By the way, to head off arguments about the loss of tranquillity high-rise living spaces might bring, the Least Terns look very tranquil with their high, low and medium density living space.
Comment by Jack Richard — November 30, 2007 @ 9:01 am
Jack R,
Yes, this was the point I was trying to make. Perhaps I should have clarified this more. The bottom line is that you can’t peg a proportional amount of current median home values to a target lower income housing cost.
In regards to whether homes in Bayport will decline in value, well they might already have to some extent.Dataquick, which is an unbiased real estate statistics site based in Vancouver released this report a few weeks ago for
Alameda:
Alameda sales: -33.7% YOY Median 2006:$587,500
Median 2007:$570,000
Total devaluation: -3.0%
You can read the full details here:
http://www.dqnews.com/RRBay1107.shtm
In regards to the mortgage broker telling you that values will only go up because ” they aren’t building any more homes” is like the classic: “They aren’t making any land. People in the RE industry are naturally going to make anything dealing with housing sound as rosy as possible. In my opinion, RE agents,brokers, RE investors, and lenders are full of it. Despite the calamity that’s actually happening in the market, there’s still people in the biz crowing about how RE only goes up, that right this very minute is a GREAT time to buy, and so on and so on. Of course this is their job, but who do you want to believe? The car salesman, or the quality ratings from an independent party?
It is important to read the facts here. The 3% depreciation is mostly from August on out because at that point, the magic exotic loan machine that fueled housing here,of which 70% of all Bay Area homebuyers used suddenly dried up.
Homes bought from roughly 2003-2006, and even early 2007 were only supported by the ability of buyers to use such loans like IO, ARM- and the favorite of Bay Areaettes- AL-A, of which will reset in mass around 2010-2012.
So even though the focus of foreclosures, stalling sales, and credit woes is currently the fallout of resetting ARM and IO loans, the other shoes have yet to fall. Perhaps you’re getting my drift now. The sudden collapse in sales throughout the area is tied completely to the loans that floated the market along for a few additional years when it really should have corrected sometime in 2003. What’s more is that we haven’t seen ‘nuttin’ yet. The biggest bit of nasty news will be in April, 2008 when the largest chunk of IO and ARM loans reset all at once.These loans are like gifts that keep right on giving. They’re spread out over years and every time they reset, even more people default, hence increasing the supply, and driving down demand.
So will prices in Bayport fall? Yes. How far will they? well, nobody has a crystal ball.But by doing the math and correlating values tied to unsupportable economics and lending practices, you arrive at a drop of somewhere between 15-30%, which is also supported by numerous publications, economic forums, and so on. It is also important to see that even if Bayport somehow remains more immune to price reductions that it will ultimately be affected by surrounding neighborhoods like Oakland, Hayward, and the other parts of Alameda. People aren’t dumb and if they see homes in other parts of Alameda for drastically lower prices, they will buy there and hence the demand for Bayport homes will diminish.
Lastly, I realize that real estate is the sacred cow of the Bay Area and people’s almost unhealthy obsession with it. But at the end of the day, despite all the calls for community planning, development, plans for low income housing, smart growth, limiting growth, and so on, it all boils down to good ole’-fashioned economic fundamentals.
mess.
Anyhow, I’ve ranted enough about this and beaten this horse silly. If you bought and plan on staying for at least 10-15 years, then you will see a return on your investment. I get a feeling that most people here probably have that in mind. If that’s the case, then the downturn shouldn’t be your concern. But for those that bought on a shoestring and are praying for a refi to get them out of their mess, that’s a different story. By any means, I pay close attention to these reports and read the MLS numbers regularly. If I buy, it will be at the start of price appreciation, which I am guesstimating will be 3-5 years from now. If not, well adios amigos!
Comment by edvard — November 30, 2007 @ 9:01 am
I must admit to some confusion. It does appear that part of the SF County line does cross Alameda Point on some maps. It is still unclear if this is above or below the surface of the bay, but if these tidal lands are above the surface, it could be said that the Least Terns living in high density San Francisco enjoy overlooking tranquil Alameda, but they themselves look much less tranquil when their numbers are in high density and they appear more quiet and calm when they are enjoying low density conditions.
Comment by David Kirwin — November 30, 2007 @ 10:26 pm
notadave – (#9 & 10)
You say I consistently misrepresent HOMES position, but I have never represented them – I have pointed out they have not yet represented what it is they are seeking an MA exemption for at Alameda Point. What is their PLAN?
I am not “championing” the CA State laws concerning the density bonus. I did not know about them until D. Howard presented that information at the recent MA debate. Frankly I was stunned. I doubt helen Souse or the developers shared my ignorance.
Notadave - You do know of course that State Law trumps local law, don’t you? (Remember we just lost our ferry system to a State agency because passage of new State law?)
That housing density “exemption” to Measure ‘A’ is not a local choice – it is a choice the developer already has, regardless of any action taken or not taken in regard to MA. I give no praise to Howard, I simply acknowledged that he was the first to bring the existing state law to the public attention at the recent debate. I have no strong opinion on this “density bonus”. It is out of local control to enact or to prevent a developer enacting this bonus. You call this a developer’s dream, so what do you call HOMES goal of completely unrestricted density?
Also if a developer uses the density bonus it does NOT override other controls or local codes concerning “architectural design, parking, etc.” – Why do you say it would? The plans must still go through city planning, PB & CC. Although all those bodies seem very developer friendly in their current form, they will wrangle out the big items like the master plan and infrastructure, and all the other items like the required amount of public art, signage, tree types and numbers, development fees to help offset the impact to AUSD, and all the other conditions now in the purview of those bodies, except that the unit density limit of MA gets increased by almost 50% if the developer used the State incentive to build more affordable homes.
The reason Howard pointed out the State law is to show the lie, myth, red herring, whatever, - the HOMES mantra that we need to abolish MA at the Point to build high density in order to have affordable homes. That is just un-truth. They can already have higher density for affordable homes WITH Measure A – The question that remains unanswered is “What does HOMES want the MA exemption for?” Don’t forget about the hundreds of other non-MA units that can be built to settle the lawsuit I mentioned in post #9, or that the high rise condos being built at Jack London Square are the high priced units that developers build to maximize profit - unrestricted density has no bearing on affordability except where mandated by law.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 1, 2007 @ 11:37 am
The above post actually relates to post #10 & 11, not #9 & 10 as stated.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 1, 2007 @ 11:42 am
I’m not going to do your research for you Kirwin - go over to stop drop and roll (link at the top right of the page here) and then click on the documents John Knox White has put together on the density bonus, specifically this:
Once the developer has requested the density bonus, she can request (and is required to receive) three concessions and incentives. From Kautz’s write up:
* Reductions in site development standards and modifications of zoning and architectural design requirements, including reduced setbacks and parking standards,that result in “identifiable, financially sufficient, and actual cost reductions.”
* Mixed used zoning that will reduce the cost of the housing, if the non-residential uses are compatible with the housing development and other development in the Area.
* Other regulatory incentives or concessions that result in “identifiable, financially sufficient, and actual cost reductions.
And show me one attributable statement from HOMES that says they favor abolishing measure A. Can’t? Id didn’t think so.
Comment by notadave — December 2, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
NAD - here are two interpretations of the new “Density bonus laws”, http://www.calapa.org/attachments/articles/15/SB-1818-Q-A-Final-1-26-05.pdf and http://www.cacities.org/resource_files/24552.newmathSteveMattas.DOC .
I don’t have the time or inclination to fully wrap my brain around this law. I stated I had no strong opinion about it. Upon learning a little more I have a little less appreciation for the law. But also as I said; this condition already exists - it is the law. As you stated the locality with jurisdiction of all zoning, and construction codes etc, must work with the developer to provide additional incentive for the construction of affordable homes. (Developers of course prefer to build high price homes so they can make more profit). But just because this State law entitles the developer to some concessions to local codes, it does not exempt the developer from all local codes as you suggested. It means the local boards must give some leeway on codes to help make the homes cheaper to build and more profitable for the developers. It is of course another law to aid developers. I may not like it & you may not like it – Helen Souse may not like it, but it is the law.
Therefore WITH NO ACTION TO CHANGE Measure ‘A’ developer can build twice the density that was stated as the needed density for viable ‘transit hubs’, and provides more affordable housing.
NOW NAD:
Do you want to state why HOMES really wants to abolish MA at the Point? (From Encarta: abolish - to put an end to something such as a law)
Comment by David Kirwin — December 2, 2007 @ 6:33 pm
Dave Kirwin wrote “It means the local boards must give some leeway on codes to help make the homes cheaper to build and more profitable for the developers.”
The concessions are ostensibly to make the properties more affordable, so one questions if they can simultaneously serve to render a substantial profit increase to the developer as well.
Your consistent effort to enhance your own understanding on this and other subjects and in stating your case are admirable, but please try not to distort the basics.
Though this is one tiny example, I think your bias is so great that you can’t help taking the smallest opportunity to twist things to put developers or whomever in the worst light.
It doesn’t appear you have enough detailed information on the developer’s bottom line to judge how exactly they benefit. Until we have that information, I think we should give benefit of any doubt and assume that by principle the zoning and code concessions offset cost to the purchaser while allowing profit by the developer to remain constant. If something more devious is achieved let a person with facts to prove that step forward.
Comment by sideline — December 2, 2007 @ 7:44 pm
Re. 21
If not for a higher profit level, why would a developer bother building under the Density Bonus Laws? The law may not exempt the developer from local codes but local codes must be ameliorated to make units more affordable. Is that not a basic? I’m at a loss to understand what, besides the bottom line, motivates a developer. It’s certainly not devious to make a higher profit while complying with state law but I would certainly wonder what, besides profit, would be the motivation to not make high profit. Detailed information?
Comment by Jack Richard — December 2, 2007 @ 8:27 pm
Sideliner - You are correct.
I’ll bet though Perata had something to do with this bill which makes it easier for developers to get bonuses and code concessions so their profit line is not likely to be diminished when building affordable homes (In fact it guarantees their profit will be greater than under the previous density bonus laws this new law replaces.)
As NAD pointed out, this state law in some ways puts developer interests in front of local codes and local laws.
It is not likely we will see the books and balance sheets of the developers in our local press.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 2, 2007 @ 8:40 pm
#21
“I think we should give benefit of any doubt and assume…”
WHY?
Comment by David Kirwin — December 2, 2007 @ 8:46 pm
#20 DK - I can’t speak for HOMES, but my question to you remains, show me one statement from them calling for abolition. All I have ever heard them call for is exempting Alameda Point from Measure A. Just like the Density Bonus you initially supported would also exempt Alameda Point from Measure A. Still can’t give me an answer? I’m waiting……..
Comment by notadave — December 3, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
#24 Innocent until proven guilty, I guess. That’s a nice notion, doncha think?
Comment by sideline — December 3, 2007 @ 5:18 pm
#25
NAD - Abolish, put an end to, eliminate, eradicate, do away with, just pick your phrase if you want to play a semantic game. Or is there a part of MA that HOMES wants to maintain at the Pont that I am unaware of? And show me where I ever supported the use of the State Density Bonus anywhere in the state!
You tell me.
Since you have been speaking for HOMES, why do you now say that you can’t speak for them? Aren’t you just afraid to speak the truth – that the State Density Bonuses do not provide enough freedom for the developers, and that Helen Souse and her developer friends want even fewer restrictions, including absolutely NO CAP on density?
C’mom, the truth now…
Comment by David Kirwin — December 3, 2007 @ 6:57 pm
Sideline #21;
“I think we should give benefit of any doubt and assume that by principle the zoning and code concessions offset cost to the purchaser while allowing profit by the developer to remain constant.”
OKAY IF:
By “constant”, I you mean their ‘maximum’.
There must be better ways to provide ‘affordable housing’ without ‘maximizing’ profit for developers at the cost of taxpayers, local codes, and laws created by local public initiative.
These laws were created by the developers, for the developers.
And to maintain my outward bias I’ll add that it seems ‘we the people’ are just peons who live in their world, and Democracy is for the corporations that can afford to control the outcome..
Comment by David Kirwin — December 3, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
# 28
“There must be better ways to provide ‘affordable housing’ without ‘maximizing’ profit for developers…” Yeah, drag Jimmy Carter out with his habitat for…
This business of building ‘affordable housing’ is a smart marketing ploy used by an industry in order to maximize profits at the expense of guilt ridden yuppie liberals. Can’t blame you, though, for trying to assuage your guilt for the cheapest price possible.
If you want ‘affordable housing’, pay the piper or buy stock in the corp. How can you blame profit-making groups (corporations) for doing everything they can to maximize profits. If you want to replace the profit making economic model with another, go start a movement.
Democracy isn’t for the corporations any more than it is for peons. Get your gang together, make some new laws and change the world.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 3, 2007 @ 8:24 pm
From Kitchendemocracy.org - a post by one “David Kirwin” “David Howard is showing that reason is already served without a change to Measure A”
Comment by notadave — December 3, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
Jack #29 - Examine past experience for some simple solutions to building cheaper homes. Look at so many of the homes that were built with less than 1,000 SF under the roof. They were built for those who could not afford ‘big fancy’ homes. Today “economy of scale” does not have to mean 100’s of nearly identical 3.000 sf homes, with some sold below market rate. Homes can be built “scaled down for economy” without the developer making the same profit on a stripped to essentials <1,000 sf home as they do on a 3,000 sf home with all the bells and whistles.
Yet it appears our “elected” officials see things should be aligned with the best wishes of developers.
Personally I don’t need affordable housing any more, but that need for affordability has been one of the main songs sung by the HOMES choir, but is already provided by the state law, as D. Howard pointed out.
“Democracy isn’t for the corporations any more than it is for peons.” - You are right but the corporations have more money to buy the laws they want and to finance the elections of those who will serve their needs. Occasionally something is so important that all the peons will get working together for a common cause - like they did to create the law leading to Alameda City Charter Amendment 26, the honored Measure ‘A’
NAD #30, thank you - my point exactly; http://www.kitchendemocracy.org/Alameda/Built-in_Dev_Restrictions/comments?choice=No&offset=0
Comment by David Kirwin — December 4, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
Notadave #11 -You posted to me - “I really have had enough of you popping in, spouting lies, and then not hanging around to defend them.”
So how bout turning the tables and you take your turn at defending your point and answering my questions instead of running away? (At the mouth of your keyboard.)
Comment by David Kirwin — December 5, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
David your # 31
I agree, there are solutions, not simple solutions, but solutions to building cheaper houses. Our friend edvard found one solution by deciding to move to Tennessee. I look at the houses that were built across the country with less than 1,000 sq ft, not only across the country, but in Alameda, and discovered the one thing that is common and another that is not common amongst them. They’re all cheaply built, Alameda not excepted, but the difference is, the cheaply built houses in Alameda are no longer less expensive than houses expensively built.
I do not know what the motivation of our elected officials is. But I would guess, if they want to get re-elected, they will pretty much follow what their constituency wants them to do. As far as corporations buying laws, well, that certainly hasn’t changed since 1886, when the supreme court found that a corporation was sheltered under the same 14th amendments rights as a natural person.
The chances of repealing the 14th amendment and overturning the Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad decision and thereby reining in corporate power seem pretty slim in this day and age, so where does that leave you.
Well, you say (hope) something will come along and motivate the ‘peons’ into throwing off corporate oppression. Not likely. Even that man of the peons, Hugo in Venezuela is walking on thinner and thinner ice. And he’s in charge. You used MA as an example of common cause citizens taking power from vested interests in order to create a law in their common interest. This is an odd example. MA did create a law, but that law was created, not by peons, but by the privileged landed class in Alameda. If anything, MA has done the lion’s share of creating and maintaining cheaply built but very expensive houses in Alameda.
So what are the solutions? Ask edvard.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 5, 2007 @ 8:41 pm
Jack - my use of the word “peons” in post #28 was meant as “we the people” are perceived as peons by the corporations. Many of us may own a little dirt with a box to keep our stuff and our beds protected, but that amounts to near nothing compared to the corporations - those super, natural persons with the power and motivation to corrupt the form of lasting Democracy our founding fathers established; you know, the “by the people for the people…” ( Really I don’t consider my home just a box, it is just an expression for the sake of this argument.)
Our Democracy seems to be changing at an exponential rate to (brought by, bought by) ,”by the corporations, for the profit”. Look at big oil, and Halliburton makes me cry - taking all our billions of tax $, no bid contracts, few results exchanged for the wealth they plundered…I guess since they moved off shore to Dubai, they no longer even have to pay a tax for the loot they plunder from us. Seems like corporations no longer even try to hide their behavior - they are too powerful, too far from our reach, they are out of our control, and they have our government in their hands.
It is easy for me to point out that MA kept the high priced, cheaply built apartments and condos from being built, and therefore has kept huge numbers of cars off the island, and I disagree with the way you expressed that cheaply built homes are as expensive as well built homes. It is not so simple to state; you need to provide some general examples of what you mean. Are you comparing recently constructed Ikea quality condos with well built little pre-war cottages?
Alameda is so special within the Bay Area that it certainly will raise the value of cheapo construction. People want the values of our quiet neighborhoods, and our quality school system. Real estate’s mantra; “location, location, location” clearly skews the home valuations from the structures themselves, but home buyers are not blind to quality vs crap. I agree that many will still seek less quality if affordable with less sacrifice, and they likely have plans to make it nice as they can. Edvard may point out that this could over inflate the cheaply built places more than the well built homes. It may be true but as I watch all the extra chartered jets fly in for the Raider game days, I realize there are also considerable numbers of people with plenty of wealth.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 6, 2007 @ 12:56 am
OK Kirwin, even though I have on numerous occassions asked you questions that you have not had the courtesy to answer, and called you on false allegations that you have not had the courage to defend, and even though others expressed outrage and wanted an apology when you posted an intentionally inflamatory, spiteful and hurtful post after the tragic murder of a girl in Washington Park, I will now entertain your delusional sense of entitelment, and answer your “question” - I use quotations, since you really didn’t ask a clear question, but I think what you were challenging me on was to tell you what HOMES wanted for the base.
Through the miracle that is the internet and google (you should really try it sometimes - if you are concerned about fact checking that is) I give you the HOMES website. If you click on the link that says “The Plan” you will see what HOMES wants, which revolves around the following principles (quoting from their website):
Seamless integration with the rest of the City
A vibrant new neighborhood
Maximization of waterfront accessibility
De-emphasizing the automobile and making new development compatible with transportation capacity
Ensuring economic development
Creating a mixed-use environment
Establishing neighborhood centers
At the measure A debate I heard the speakers acknowledge that none of them were professional planners, and weren’t qualified to through out a specific number (even though howard went on to do that). When the original PDC was put together, the staff was prohibited by the council from doing a full assessment of what a non-measure A constricted development would look like. Let that discussion happen, and then we can talk about numbers.
As to the information given above, you have received it before, have never acknowledged it, and won’t be satisfied this time either. I couldn’t care less.
Comment by notadave — December 6, 2007 @ 8:07 am
The density bonus–
Actually this applies to any individual who wants to add housing units to his property, as long as he/she can comply with the state requirements. The state requirements override local zoning, period.
My mother’s neighbor in Southern California is building a second house in their back yard in an area zoned for single family homes only with minimum lot requirements. When Mom went to the local planning department to complain that they were breaking the zoning, planning gave her a copy of the law and said there is nothing they could do, the law says the zoning is superseded.
Comment by Kevis Brownson — December 6, 2007 @ 2:42 pm
NAD - Like you saw at the debate - all of the reasons you copied off the HOMES website:
Seamless integration with the rest of the City
A vibrant new neighborhood
Maximization of waterfront accessibility
De-emphasizing the automobile and making new development compatible with transportation capacity
Ensuring economic development
Creating a mixed-use environment
Establishing neighborhood centers
It can and has been done with adherence to MA. There are of course are places that can be pointed out that were built with out matching these goals, but that is because the city allowed it, not because it could not be done with Measure A.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 6, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
Re # 36 Density Bonus
Something just doesn’t sound right about this, Kevis. I’d like to see the actual law and legal interpretation before I start breaking ground.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 6, 2007 @ 4:53 pm
Kirwin - Name one instance where it has been done with adherence to MA and accomplished all of those goals.
Comment by notadave — December 6, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
Marina Village.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 6, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
MArina Village- Not seamlessly integrated, not public transit friendly. The only reason the mixed use works is the non measure A compliant higher density housing that surrounds it.
Comment by notadave — December 7, 2007 @ 7:56 am
I lived in Marina Village for a few months and enjoyed the easy bus access to Oakland & Bart. I wouldn’t call it unfriendly to public transit at all.
—-
To go slightly off topic, Marina Village has a huge vacancy rate. My eyeball estimate is at least a quarter, but of course eyeballs can be wrong.
Why is more commercial space planned for Alameda Landing while Marina Village languishes just a couple of football fields away?
Comment by dave — December 7, 2007 @ 8:26 am
notadave - name one instance where it has been done with non-adherence to MA and accomplished all those goals.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 7, 2007 @ 8:40 am
Jack, I would be delighted to, once Kirwin answers my question. The clock is ticking - 1 days since Kirwin has refused to back up his statement and counting.
Comment by notadave — December 7, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
NAD - Marina Village would have been my 1st response as well.
What are you suggesting that will do better?
HOMES has no plan except to provide developers a blank check with re-development funds, and no density restrictions, and no restrictions as to how a MA exception would be used.
…And look at that I even checked the site again within 24 hrs, therefore <1 day counted.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 7, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
RE # 44
In # 41 the other Dave, who has actually lived in Marina Village, says bus access is easy, I interpret that as ‘friendly’, and thereby wipes out one of the two sticky wickets you mention concerning Marina Village. The other is, ‘not seamlessly integrated’. One could argue that Marina Village is as ’seamlessly’ integrated as any of the ‘Station’ neighborhoods throughout Alameda. If there’s anything about Alameda that’s common, it’s the ’seamed’ housing neighborhoods that were stitched together over many decades between the small businesses that surround the Stations.
I would argue that Marina Village is stitched as seamlessly as the rest of Alameda in the quilt of many different patches that is this city.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 7, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Jack Richard
I have heard in the past that Mariner’s Square, and Marina Village are hard to find for many folks, especially from off the island. Marina Village directions are simply “take the tube, then Constitution Way and turn left at the first light”, but if you miss the light you could drive around for a while. Going the other way I have taken a number of unintended trips to Oakland by accident by forgetting that one must approach Marina Village or Mariner Sq, from Constitution and not Webster past Atlantic.
I think you are stretching it to say it’s as seamlessly integrated as any other historic stations in Alameda.
On the other hand notadave says of Marina Village in #41 “The only reason the mixed use works is the non Measure A compliant higher density housing that surrounds it.” I don’t get where that non compliant higher density is, the housing authority senior housing? Maybe I’m spacing on something.
I have heard good reviews from some people who have lived in the housing at Marina Village, except complaints about the lack of driveways. The scale and integration of the office commercial spaces is interesting to me because it does appear to create more of a mixed use environment than the HBI industrial park by contrast.
I have heard that one reason the retail at Marina Village has suffered is that it is not seamlessly integrated to the Webster shopping district but is cut off. I hear dave in #42 and wonder myself about both Marina Village and Alameda Landing suffering from being in their own corners. The Landing has Bayport to work with, but I’ve thought that for it to really fly it really needs major water connection to Jerry Brown’s 10,000 new residents in the JLS area.
Comment by Mark I — December 7, 2007 @ 6:03 pm
Marina Village also has a nine-story high-rise apartment building, plus a house-boat marina and a couple of hotels. The high-rise was build just prior to Measure A.
The good qualities of Marina Village are in spite of Measure A, not because of it.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 7, 2007 @ 7:48 pm
epends on what you consider the good qualities to be.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 7, 2007 @ 8:15 pm
# 48
What you’re suggesting, Alameda NayTiff, is that Marina village could have been much better had MA not been passed. Well, take a look at that nine story ‘thing’ next to it and tell me that Marina Village would have been better if it had been built modeled using that ‘thing’, absent MA.
# 47
I guess you missed my point Mark I. This word ’seamless’ has different meanings for different folks. To me ’seamless’ does not mean everyplace in Alameda has to be equally accessed. To me, it means that new stuff should be built reflecting the character of the city. The character of Alameda, if anything, reflects structures of every architectural design and period through three centuries of history. Marina Village reflects late twentieth century design built under the umbrella of MA. Frankly, I think they did a pretty good job.
I agree with you on notadave’s # 41. I haven’t found the ‘high density’ housing surrounding Marina Village.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 7, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
#38 Jack–
Here you go: AB 1866
Possibly Alameda has compliant zoning for second units already in place…making the state law not applicable.
Comment by Kevis Brownson — December 7, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
#50
The building isn’t a “thing,” it is a mid-rise or high-rise depending upon definition. Yes, it could be more attractive — and probably would be if built today rather than in the 60s. Having a few buildings near the waterfront at about this height would be fine with me. A few years ago I went to a party on the top floor of the “thing” and the views were fantastic as were the hosts.
Marina Village is a good development not because of Measure A, but because the developers had a good plan that was well executed. Condo prices there are expensive. The homes go for about $600K and I think that the monthly hoa fee is about $400. The fees are high because there are so many individual buildings to maintain and there is extensive landscaping.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 8, 2007 @ 8:06 am
Kevis; As I recall this issue came before the planning board when I was there and we fought against it very hard. When Arnold took office the people in Sacramento that were trying to push it through were stopped by him. The way I read this now it sound like a voluntary plan that can be used by each city. Personally I would fight it, because it could destroy all single family neighborhoods.
John P.
Comment by john piziali — December 8, 2007 @ 9:34 am
# 51
Thanks, Kevis. I seem to remember someone on this blog mentioning that Alameda required so many hoop-jumping-through’s that the intent of the state law wasn’t worth the bureaucratic hassle in this city .
Comment by Jack Richard — December 8, 2007 @ 9:39 am
Re #53, There you go, Kevis. Spoken from the source
Comment by Jack Richard — December 8, 2007 @ 9:42 am
Re # 52
We can argue till we’re blue in the face about the beauty of the ‘thing’ building, but the fact remains, the Village was built under MA guidelines. You admit it’s a good plan, well executed (albeit, expensive to live in, but expense isn’t mentioned in notadave’s list in #35 ). Let’s not trade the ‘good enough’ Village in-hand for the could-a-been Development thingy in a dream.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 8, 2007 @ 9:55 am
Re mixed use; I’ve always been curious as to what percentage of Marina Village residents walk or bike to work, as compared to residents in the rest of Alameda. Also, it would be interesting to know what percentage of the business park’s employees live in Alameda. Anyone know if that information is available?
Comment by Susan — December 8, 2007 @ 10:24 am
# 57
Working, shopping and living in the same neighborhood is the uncontrollable outcome ‘mixed use’ proponents desire. It’s one argument (vacuous, in my view) used to build ‘affordable’ housing in a mixed use setting. The argument assumes Alameda (for instance) workers are going to naturally inhabit affordable housing built in Alameda. Fortunately, the ‘Government’ cannot directly (yet) dictate where individuals live. Consequently, any income group anywhere can and will move to the most desirable living spot they can afford, then commute to work. Strictly as an academic study, the answer to what Susan asks would be interesting.
Government cannot directly dictate where we live but Government could certainly influence the ‘where’. One way would be to eliminate tax advantages to home owners and make this a nation of renters vice owners. Result, more fluid workforce unattached to their own plot of dirt with a box on it.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 8, 2007 @ 11:46 am
San Francisco Business Times
October 19, 1987
At Marina Village, Old Shipyard Site Becomes a Waterside Mixed-Use Area
BYLINE: Susan Ginsberg; Edward Ginsberg
SECTION: Vol 2; No 7; Sec 1; pg 39
“It really is an honest-to-goodness village,” said Irvin Hamilton, publicist for Marina Village, a planned community along the estuaries of Alameda. “It’s not congested, you don’t need a car, and it has a suburban character.”
People can walk to the dry cleaner, grocery, travel agency. “There are a lot of multi-use projects around, but the scale of this one really does work as a little village.”
Community activities such as Jazz on the Boardwalk, a boat show and a softball league now exist, and a public art program is planned. ‘A nice spirit is developing,” Hamilton said.
This planned community, by Vintage Properties, includes offices, housing, business space and a shopping center on an old shipyard that, until recently, was abandoned to beer cans and worn-out tires. The few buildings that remain have a history, and the land has been host to sailing ships, steamships and ship builders since the last century.
“Some properties are built to be viewed from an automobile,” said Joan Lamphier, a planning consultant hired by Alameda to work on the Marina Village project. “This one is designed to be appreciated by walkers.”
A fountain throws a single stream of water from one of the artificial lagoons that front the housing areas.
A total of 180 townhouses are planned, priced from $ 185,000 to $ 270,000 and designed for “empty nesters” and a young professionals.
The housing area is a three-minute walk from the waterfront, evidence that the developers decided to maintain a continuity with the site’s shipbuilding past.
This section of Alameda was once the winter home to the Alaska Packers. The fleet was formed in 1893 and spent the warm months catching and canning salmon in northern waters.
The first shipyard located on the property was established in 1898 when Alexander Hay moved the Hay and Wright Yard from San Francisco.
Today a yacht sales office is open for business near a 950-berth marina. Nearby is the designated site for a “boatel,” a hotel that can accommodate customers who arrive by boat. Between 1916 and 1923, 58 ships were built next to that field. When completed, this $ 250 million development will have 180 townhouses, 600,000 square feet of space for either offices or small businesses; and 569,000 square feet of office space. There will be a large shopping center, sites for free-standing restaurants, a 51-unit inn, and the boatel with 380 rooms. All this will be on a 205-acre tract with a mile-long waterfront park.
The land that developer Vintage Properties acquired came complete with several dilapidated historical buildings. Deemed suitable for restoration were the power house, the shipways and a warehouse.
The machine shop building that dominated the site is gone. In its place stands a four-story brick office building designed to “capture the feel” of its predecessor, the Union Iron Works Turbine Machine Shop built in 1917.
The Power House, whose red and black “Flemish Bond” brickwork is one of the most prominent design motifs for the entire development, was built in 1916.
“Marina Village is a good place for spinoff companies from U.C. (Berkeley) or growing technology companies that were in Berkeley but could no longer find appropriate space there,” says Hamilton.
Greater Suburban Mortgage Group Inc. is housed in a most unusual structure — Shipway 1. The Shipways are gigantic cement ramps, under which are enclosed areas formerly used for machine shops, tool storage and offices.
Some buildings in the research and development area are incubator spaces, designed for flexible floor plans so that fledgling companies will have room to expand as they prosper.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 8, 2007 @ 11:55 am
Jack,
I think you are ignoring a main criticism about Marina Village being over in a corner and more isolated than any of the traditional stations which are nodes which occur periodically along a seamless grid. My point has nothing to do with the architecture.
It’s not that important a point to me. We can pretty much agree what is good or bad about the place, I just thought the stations were a bad comparison.
Comment by Mark I — December 8, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
The stations are indeed a poor comp. MV is essentailly an island, bordered by a large railyard on the South, a large corporatecampus on the East and the tunnel/overpass on the West.
The land area is also mostly commercial. The only housing is the high rise and the townhomes.
And I enjoyed the irony of the date on the above article. Methinks the next day’s edition was a little different.
Comment by dave — December 8, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
Sparked a little discussion here haven’t we! I maintain that MV doesn’t work because it isn’t seamless, and is fairly isolated, and others disagree - fair enough. How about diversity of housing? How many units are affordable?
Comment by notadave — December 8, 2007 @ 4:22 pm
Don Parker who was a principle in the development group which built Marina Village came before the Council, back when Ralph A. was mayor, and got approval for the Shipways to be built out as the last project, but I guess it hasn’t happened. There were some early birds from the transit advocates who were asking for enhanced bus service. The developer had agreed to pay for a BART shuttle in the original development. I can’t remember what specific agreements were made that night, but I seem to recall that there were no significant added enhancements. That shuttle and close proximity to the bus stop pointed at the tube were what constituted the project being “transit oriented”, but I think another term was used.
Mr. Parker’s appearance that evening was after he had been added Borrowed)to Catellus staff for the wooing period where Catellus originally vied for and was awarded the Bayport/Alameda Landing project (then referred to as NAS FISC). After that contract was secured I believe his official association with Catellus ended. It seemed like a painfully obvious P.R. stunt, which seemed to be effective, as Marina Village was considered a wonderful success by most every account at that time.
Alaska Packers were docked directly at Encinal Terminal and Fortman Marina, east of Wind River. I guess the docked ships may have extended all the way west to the heart of Marina Village.
Comment by Mark I — December 8, 2007 @ 4:38 pm
Mark I, # 60
Give me a break! Too isolated! It was just a few weeks ago, in this blog, that North Village was in the isolated Alameda ‘hinterlands’ because it wasn’t closer to Marina Village. Now MV has mentally migrated to the hinterlands because it’s not on an, all but forgotten, old rail line near a Station.
It’s just too bad MV couldn’t have just picked itself up and moved itself out of a corner into rail Station. Trouble is, the Stations have all been taken by other stuff and there won’t be anymore until light-rail sweeps us up.
The only thing common about the Stations is that they were on a rail line and all built in the era of rail travel in Alameda. What else can you use to compare to MV? Seamless Bay Farm Island?
dave, # 61
MV’s an island? That’s a good one. A make-believe island on a man-made island. Black Monday didn’t seem to matter much in the long run, did it dave? At least by judging MV’s current prices in comparison to 87’s.
Mark I, read dave’s post about MV’s southern border. Maybe Marina Village’s a Station after all, albeit ‘make-believe’.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 8, 2007 @ 4:49 pm
Jumping tracks to the other issue discussed, transit viability. The transit that currently serves MV is not supported by MV, it’s supported by the North Shore, and it’s connection to Park Street etc. The service, Line 19, is there because transit advocates (not me) pushed hard to connect the north shore with a viable trunk line in the AC system, so as to get provide something resembling decent service to the area.
Prior to the Line 19, MV paid money into a shuttle run by AC Transit which operated only during commute hours. Great for commuters, not so great for anyone else, they couldn’t support anything better. (Same story for BFI).
At Alameda Point, the impetus for this disussion, there will be no through service, the development will either support transit at friendly service levels of 10-15 minutes, or it won’t.
MV has a lot to guide the discussion, especially within the MA compliant side, support of public transit options isn’t one of the things.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 8, 2007 @ 5:42 pm
Jack,
Calm down already. I am repeating what has been said time and again about the general accessibility oF MV, nothing more. I’m not trying to sell MV as one thing or the other, but using a measure of common sense to comment on what seems to be true, judged by my minimal exposure to using the amenities at MV.
The Beltline walls off access to the south. The water borders the the north. You have to approach across the tracks on Sherman. Seems kind of isOLated to me. You’re entitled to your perCeption, but I gotta go be festive now so I don’t want to aRGUE. bYE.
Comment by Mark I — December 8, 2007 @ 6:17 pm
Re #66: “The Beltline walls off access to the south. The water borders the the north. You have to approach across the tracks on Sherman.” Aren’t these limitations that would have applied no matter what sort of development was undertaken there?
Comment by Susan — December 8, 2007 @ 8:11 pm
Re. # 65
“At Alameda Point, the impetus for this disussion, there will be no through service, the development will either support transit at friendly service levels of 10-15 minutes, or it won’t”
Then, based on previous models throughout Alameda, it won’t, so we darn well better be sure the Point is private conveyance friendly.
Re. # 66
The beltline does not wall off MV access from the south any more than the lagoon walls off access to south shore or BFI. The Naval Air Station access was walled (fenced) off with only two or three open but guarded gates. The rest of the Base was ‘walled’ off by the Bay, yet 6000 plus workers made it in and out each day. These, so called ‘walls’, are a figment of either someone’s ignorance or desires.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 8, 2007 @ 8:16 pm
Uh, Jack, the comment about MV being an island was rhetorical ans metaphorical. It is a neighborhood bounded by large areas of commercial or transit space, thus METAPHORICALLY cut off from the rest of the city.
As for Black Monday, it was caused by rising interest rates colliding with high valuations. Does that historical correction sound familiar?
I had assumed that you of all on this increasingly obtuse blog could grasp such concepts as methaphor, allusion, and irony. Alas, I am again reminded the fate of those who deign to asume…
Comment by dave — December 8, 2007 @ 10:40 pm
#68 - Jack, that’s certainly one way. (design to accomodate and increase auto use). Or we could design to support transportation options.
So many choices.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 9, 2007 @ 10:02 am
dave. Must you resort to imputative insinuations when your island sinks?
Comment by Jack Richard — December 9, 2007 @ 10:18 am
Wait a minute John, when you say the ‘development’ will either support friendly transit service or it won’t, are you saying that if the development is ‘designed’ for friendly transit, shazam, Captain Marvel will make it happen? Frankly, I’ve got my doubts about AC Transit supporting 10-15 minute friendly service (anywhere) no matter what the design or development ends up being.
What are some of the other many choices?
Comment by Jack Richard — December 9, 2007 @ 10:38 am
Susan,
#66. My answer to your question is , yes those physical restrictions around access to MV would have effected any development there. I don’t think I understand your point in posing that question.
In response to Jack R.’s reference to the lagoon neighborhoods as comparison, I can say that I live on the lagoon block of Oak. Residentially this can be ideal for quiet and calm, as in the serene properties at Paru and other lagoon blocks in the Gold Coast are proof. It becomes some what different when you have an entire tract which has multiple uses, including commercial, which has limited points of entry.
Even the lagoon neighborhoods have the grid on three remaining sides. MV is like an island within the island to some extent. I’m not saying that those limitations make it quantifiably different in any specific way. Anecdotally, some people have theorized that the less than thriving state of the retail segment is at least in part related to these limitations.
I am repeating that speculation, but have no scientific statistics to prove that as true.
Comment by Mark I — December 9, 2007 @ 11:05 am
In the past MV had bus service every 15 minutes during commute hours. Now it is only every 30 minutes. That level of service does not promote transit use. When service is infrequent few use public transit and low ridership equals transit cuts. It is a vicious cycle. Also, MV has no direct connection to the west end, downtown or southshore via AC Transit. The 63 stop on Constitution is remote from the heart of MV and doesn’t even have a bus shelter.
Has anyone seen the future plans for service to Bayport, Alameda Landing, MV? Do they exist?
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 9, 2007 @ 11:35 am
Re: # 39 onward
This discussion about MV began in # 39 when notadave challenged DK to: “Name one instance where it has been done with adherence to MA and accomplished all of those goals.”
Goals meaning:
Seamless integration with the rest of the City
A vibrant new neighborhood
Maximization of waterfront accessibility
De-emphasizing the automobile and making new development compatible with transportation capacity
Ensuring economic development
Creating a mixed-use environment
Establishing neighborhood centers
Most comments have more or less agreed that MV met the goals under MA, less one bone of contention. That being, “seamless integration with the rest of the City”. MV is obviously part of the city of Alameda so what remains is this “seamless integration” term.
Marina Village remains ’seamed’ and the seams seem to be irresolvable because nobody really knows ( I mean everybody knows but nobody agrees) what the term means. So, it’s time for one (or both) of the two ex and current officiators of the city (John Piziali /John Knox White), who have commented on this thread, to clarify what the official City definition of ‘Seamless’ is, or admit that there is no official definition.
Remember, no metaphors, insinuations, Black Mondays or bureaucratize, that skirt the issue, are allowed.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 9, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Jack, I don’t have any more authority to speak to the “seamless” issue than you, I can cut and paste the whole goal from the General Plan:
I’m not sure it helps what your looking for.
Per Transit, AC Transit has service standards and they run transit accordingly. These are based on (and supported by) studies from the Federal Highway Administration that show ridership of public transit is affect by different land uses. (density, vertical mixed use, etc.). So yes, I’m saying both that holding the number of households, retail, etc., constant, the way you design the Point will have a direct effect on both the service offered and the ridership achieved.
We, the residents of the city, can choose from a palette that ranges from Bayport (car oriented) to North Beach (transit oriented) or anywhere in between. We can try to design just for bikes, just for buses, for gondolas, for cars, for for a variety of usable options.
Your comment, which diverged significantly from my post, was that “we darn well better be sure the Point is private conveyance friendly.” If we decide that’s the direction to head, we certainly can do it. Marina Village is a wonderful example of what that looks like. As is Bayport, Heritage Bay, Bay Farm Island.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 9, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
#73, Mark,
My point was that the Marina Village development shouldn’t be given demerit points/deemed not seamlessly integrated due to immutable geographic constraints.
Comment by Susan — December 9, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
The City of Alameda has little to no control over regional transit. We don’t run our own bus, rail or ferry service. The only transportation we control is our local roads. This is why some view public transit people as at best well intentioned and at worst moronic. There is no assurance that increased housing density will bring anything more than increased traffic. Where are the guarantees that increased transit will follow increased development? It seems like we are in a “I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today” scenario. Drawing a transit line on a map will not make the buses run.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 9, 2007 @ 2:26 pm
Jack, the other issue that has been a focus point of these discussions over the long term has been diversity of housing choices, so while we can tick through the goals as they apply to MV without getting to diversity of housing alarms me. I think that is an absolute essential of a development that meets all the community goals. My understanding of MV is that it is basically one type of housing aimed initially at one segment of the market. Does anyone have a different understanding?
I believe my challenge to DK still has gone unanswered by him.
Comment by notadave — December 9, 2007 @ 2:41 pm
ANT, your point is taken, however, if the # of houses is the same in both scenarios, I’d need some explanation why increased housing density brings increased traffic. Density and Number of housing can be linked, but are independent of each other.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 9, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
#80
What is the difference between building 150 units of housing on five acres as opposed to ten acres? There is no guarantee that the other five acres won’t also fill up with 150 housing units. It isn’t just about the math, it is also about the politics. Real estate developers abhor a vacuum. And what is supposed to become of those other five acres…and why would it matter to AC transit? Hundreds and hundreds of new homes have been built north of Atlantic in the past ten or so years. I don’t see any new bus service, do you? In fact, there is less service than before all the development.
It isn’t enough to have faith. Where is the signed contract from AC Transit or any other transit agency to provide additional public transit? Where are the plans and the funds for the City of Alameda to provide its own service?
Why should anyone believe that if we double the density that transit will somehow appear?
Reminds me of the Cargo Cults
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmlYe2KS0-Y
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 9, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
We’ve built hundreds of houses in densities that don’t support transit service. with roadways that don’t support usable service. Therefore, no service. Would seem that the math continues to hold up.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 9, 2007 @ 5:59 pm
Bring me the density required for public transportation and then I will grant your public transit wishes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWeCkN–0Zg
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 9, 2007 @ 6:37 pm
#77 The Point is given demerits in advance for it’s apparent geographic restraints.
#75 “seamless” shouldn’t be part of a discussion of whether MV met goals of MA. There is no reference to seamless in the charter amendment, only in the community reuse plan for the Point.
#81 Ron Cowan and new state ferry system to the rescue? I sent the recently circulated survey on the Point to a friend and he railed that “gondolas and ferries are Disneyland”. Maybe you can dig up a YouTube snippet to go with the Mickey Mouse theme.
Some transit advocates have been really radical and taken the approach, don’t build it (parking and other auto infrastructure) and they won’t come (i.e. try to drive there).
I’m not willing to be so bold as to advocate that for the Point, but I do look at the solution for continued development in terms of a broad planetary overview, global warming etc. Cars are really killing the environment, and the culture of the world too.
As individuals we are all destined to become dust, but if as a species we want out of here alive, so to speak, we had better consider some radical changes.
Kurt Vonnegut was espousing the theory that humans are a virus on the planetary organism of which the planet will rid itself and eventually go about it’s own merry evolutionary path, minus further negative interference from humans. I’m beginning to believe that to be the inevitable outcome.
Comment by Mark I — December 9, 2007 @ 7:18 pm
“We’ve built hundreds of houses in densities that don’t support transit service. with roadways that don’t support usable service. Therefore, no service. Would seem that the math continues to hold up.” - JKW
So, are those homeowners exempt from paying AC Transit taxes or are their tax dollars being used to provide public transit service in other communities? How much tax dollar sleight of hand is going on here?
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 9, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
Re. # 65
“At Alameda Point, the impetus for this disussion, there will be no through service, the development will either support transit at friendly service levels of 10-15 minutes, or it won’t”
# 68 Then, based on previous models throughout Alameda, it won’t, so we darn well better be sure the Point is private conveyance friendly.
#82 “We’ve built hundreds of houses in densities that don’t support transit service. with roadways that don’t support usable service. Therefore, no service. Would seem that the math continues to hold up.” - JKW
The city can require adequate roadway construction, but cannot require or control public transit - JKW makes a damned good argument to support Jacks #68 that we should build the roadways to support vehicle use. As a transportation commissioner I hope he upholds this truth.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 10, 2007 @ 6:32 am
ANT, The city’s transit policies say tha 80% of households should be within 1200′ (less than 1/4 mile) of a bus stop. Over 80% of Bayport currently is. Bayport was designed in a way that can’t support more frequent bus service, but it does support some level of that service.
The households pay taxes and receive not only direct service, but also the benefits of supporting a transit system that removes thousands of cars per day off Alameda’s roads and through the tubes/bridges.
I appreciate your skepticism, but in order for me to accept your assertion, that bus service is not always guaranteed, I’d like to see some examples of areas that were transit supportive in their design but that are not currently served by transit. So far, there have been two examples of non-transit supportive design discussed, MV and Bayport. Each has transit service in the area, neither has high frequency service.
One can certainly build whatever one wants (one being a city). There are two major choices, we can build to give options, or we can design to encourage single occupancy cars. One guarantees increases in traffic, the other, while not limiting auto-use, has the opportunity to reduce it.
The Point, per your earlier point about development abhorring a vacuum, will be developed with more than just housing, it will include much open space, commercial, industrial and other uses. Allowing for flexibility in the design at the point (with constraints that control uses) I believe we can design something that will meet the goals most Alamedans want to achieve: a well designed area that minimizes traffic to the greatest extent possible.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 10, 2007 @ 10:07 am
Jack Richard wrote in #72, “I’ve got my doubts about AC Transit supporting 10-15 minute friendly service (anywhere) no matter what the design or development ends up being,” and he’s not the first to suggest that Alameda could never support decent transit service. I would like to point out that Line 51 (and its insomniac doppelganger, the All-Nighter Line 851), which covers most of the length of the island along Santa Clara Ave., runs every 8 minutes during commute hours. It runs 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Even during off-peak time, such as evenings and weekends, it usually runs every 20 minutes. Only in the wee, wee hours does the wait stretch out to 30 to 60 minutes.
The density and mix of uses along the Santa Clara Ave. corridor is what supports this level of service. Marina Village is nice, and it is more pedestrian-, bicycle-, and transit-friendly than most business parks (which isn’t saying much), but it will never support anything like the transit service enjoyed in central Alameda’s traditional neighborhoods.
Yes, there is no guarantee that if you build transit-friendly neighborhoods you will get good transit service. However, building transit-hostile neighborhoods effectively guarantees that you will get bad transit service. To lapse into bureaucratese, transit-friendly design is a necessary but not sufficient condition for good service.
Providing frequent service to low-density neighborhoods costs ridiculous amounts of money, and such routes are always the first to be cut when the budget gets tight. Even if the City ran its own transit system, these simple cost-efficiency issues would most likely drive it to make the same kinds of cuts AC Transit has made in the past. In fact, AC Transit’s economies of scale and access to regional funding probably place it in a position to provide more service than a tiny City-run agency.
Comment by Michael Krueger — December 10, 2007 @ 10:20 am
#87
Questions
What percentage of Bayport residents use public transit to get to work?
Where has AC Transit increased service due to increased population density?
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 10, 2007 @ 10:34 am
#88
There may be some very good reasons to exempt Alameda Point from Measure A; however, anyone who argues that the exemption will bring improved transit service is going to get skewered by the opposition. Alameda Point is not on the way to anywhere. If there is a fixed number of housing units then there will be a fixed amount of transit service. If we are talking about putting 10,000, 20,000 or 30,000 additional people out there, that would be a different story.
If the VA gets its way and there is a large hospital and administrative center at the Point, that could create a lot of demand for public transit, but that would have nothing to do with Measure A or residential housing.
The City may be able to implement good walking and biking neighborhoods, but it is too small to have much influence on regional transit agencies.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 10, 2007 @ 12:28 pm
The 51 may avaerage a bus every 8 minutes, but the reality experinced by one waiting for it is more like 3 buses in 1 minute, than half an hourt till the next one.
Comment by dave — December 10, 2007 @ 12:30 pm
“If there is a fixed number of housing units then there will be a fixed amount of transit service.” (#90)
That’s absolutely not true. Suppose you took all the housing units along the Santa Clara Ave. corridor and spread them out over an area many, many times that size, arranged like farm houses in rural South Dakota. You’d have the exact same total number of units, but that configuration would never support transit service. Of course, this is an extreme example, but it illustrates the point: It’s not just the total number of units that matters, but also their arrangement in space.
As for the “bus bunching” on Line 51 (#91), yes, it is a real problem that has persisted far longer than it should. At the request of Alameda’s Interagency Liaison Committee (ILC), AC Transit has formed a task force to develop a solution and place monitoring procedures in place to ensure that improvements are permanent and do not erode again when attention is focused elsewhere. Other cities all around the world manage to run buses on time in congested corridors, so AC Transit deserves to have its feet held to the fire on this one.
Comment by Michael Krueger — December 10, 2007 @ 5:24 pm
#92
“Suppose you took all the housing units along the Santa Clara Ave. corridor and spread them out over an area many, many times that size, arranged like farm houses in rural South Dakota. You’d have the exact same total number of units, but that configuration would never support transit service.”
True, but Alameda Point isn’t rural South Dakota. The area to be developed is only about a square mile. There is a relatively small number of housing units that will be built in that space. It would be different if we were talking about a vast area and the populated area concentrated into a small corner.
In any case, my point is that public transportation will only be a slice of the transportation pie if all we are talking about is a few thousand new residents. We would be lucky if AC made even a few modest improvements. Regardless, this isn’t an argument in support of Measure A or against a community that is bike/walk friendly. I just don’t want to see promises made that cannot realistically be fulfilled.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 10, 2007 @ 6:58 pm
Re #92: “public transportation will only be a slice of the transportation pie if all we are talking about is a few thousand new residents. We would be lucky if AC made even a few modest improvements.”
My main worry is this “Field of Dreams”, build it, and they will come approach. It appears that the successfull “Traditional Neighborhood Design” developments in California have been built around EXISTING transit corridors, or have gotten firm commitments that one will be in place, prior to development commencing.
Check it out.
http://www.tndwest.com/
Comment by Susan — December 10, 2007 @ 7:21 pm
Bottom line. If there’s going to be some mechanism that moves people from the Point, it’s going to have to be something the citizens of Alameda can control. The easy method is private conveyance. That’s how the vast majority has moved since the demise of rail conveyance in this city. But, in this day and age, there may be enough renewed interest to find a different way to move carcasses around yet still maintain a semblance of flexibility the private auto provides.
It’s doubtful (in fact impossible) there will be any outpouring of concern or dollars to support a City sponsored transport method unless it benefits each and every sector of this seamless city. The Santa Clara AC Transit provides a pretty good ‘one corridor’ commuter line through the center of the city. So why all the congestion at the tubes during commute hours? Are all these autos, vying for tube time, going somewhere so out of the way that only a privately conveyance can get each of them there? I don’t know. Does anyone know, John?
Carpooling works good but makes a small dent. Maybe the city could sponsor a scheduled conveyance system to the BART stations (West Oak and FruitV) during the daytime (particularly the commute hours but all day so other citizens besides commuters could use and support it). See if it helps a little. It would be a try.
Comment by Jack Richard — December 10, 2007 @ 8:27 pm
When I drive through the tube each morning headed SB on 880, I am also caught in the crunch approaching the Posey. If I could take public transit, I would, but I am not going to spend 90 minutes taking two buses and BART when I can drive the distance in about 30 minutes or so. Having a bus stop a few blocks from my home does me no good if the bus doesn’t go where I want it to go or if it takes forever to get there.
I agree with Jack that if the City ran frequent shuttles to BART, that could make a diffence for some people. Many neighborhoods lack good connections to BART and that is something the City could probably do. As has been noted here, depending on AC Transit means that they can cut service whenever they want. Doesn’t Emeryville run some sort of free BART shuttle?
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 10, 2007 @ 9:00 pm
My dearly beloved, and several friends, have had to make the long , awful, slow crawl down to the Silicon Valley. He, and they, would have killed for a viable public transit option. It seems that one of the very first steps should be to study the commute patterns of current residents. (How many work in areas served by Bart/AC Transit.) -Unless the new residents out at the point will be some completely new breed of folk…
Comment by Susan — December 11, 2007 @ 7:48 am
If you ask me,,,, if you live in the East Bay and you work in the valley, you’re kinda asking for a brutal commute, right?
Comment by Jack B. — December 11, 2007 @ 7:59 am
Yes, it’s brutal, but people do it, and I don’t imagine that is going to change. -Fortunately for hubs, he is now one of the rare and blessed who live and work in Alameda.
Comment by Susan — December 11, 2007 @ 8:07 am
A couple of thoughts (and an apology for the length):
First, this discussion is bogging down in the idea that anything is guaranteed. At the end of the day, a transit supportive design will also include autos. I’ve heard few people suggest it should be otherwise, so the either/or argument is a complete red-herring. I still haven’t seen an argument that says that planning in a way that’s been shown to increase the percentage of people who use transit is a bad thing. If you plan it, and the driving rate stays exactly the same as it would have been under a “drive-only” scenario, you have lost nothing (and this accepts the highly dubious “Alameda is an island where things are completely different than anywhere else” argument). You’ve lost nothing, created a more walkable/bikeable project, transit supportive (increasing the likelihood of reducing traffic) and at the end increased traffic not one iota.
ANT posits that development abhors a vacuum and therefore toying with density is the same as increasing housing numbers. This is only true if a voter approved amendment left out controls that maintained levels of housing in a more meaningful way than one-unit per 2,000 sf. It’s a concern that can be addressed as a part of the community discussion. I’m sure that there are others. It’s why I am interested in a public conversation. I have found this one in particular to be extremely interesting and helpful (and challenging). Thanks.
2. Jack, your comment #95 ignores what traffic would be like if the thousands of commuters going through the tube were in their private conveyance. In response to your question as to why people choose the drive through the tube. I suggest that the “convenience” of driving outweighs the congestion concerns. I’d also suggest that you are correct that some people are headed to places not well served by transit. I’m sure that there are other reasons. Of course this all ignores the “fact” that Alameda is an island where factors that exist in the rest of the area don’t hold true.
I further suggest that congestion is a part of the price of driving. Currently, it’s hardly regulated and therefore each individual finds their own comfort level where they a) put up with it, b) change their behavior to a different mode, or c) find another place to live close to where they are commuting to (this is what sprawling development does). It’s unfixable by building more roads. We’ve proven that over and over. We could build zero houses in Alameda, Traffic at the tubes is going to get more and more worse as the traffic on 880 grows (which will happen even more if all housing is forced into the hinterlands, where transit solutions are more difficult to implement cost-effectively).
3. Susan suggests looking at where Alamedans want to go. We’ve done that numerous times. Most Alamedans who leave the island are heading to Oakland or San Francisco. A large percentage also head “south.” But south, due to the sprawling development we’ve encouraged over the past 50 years is not a “place” but a multitude of places making transit solutions more difficult to implement.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 11, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
John,
I agree that this discussion has been one of the most interesting…
You said, in comment 100,
“…I still haven’t seen an argument that says that planning in a way that’s been shown to increase the percentage of people who use transit is a bad thing. If you plan it, and the driving rate stays exactly the same as it would have been under a “drive-only” scenario, you have lost nothing…”
Per comment #88, isn’t it about more than just density? Doesn’t there have to be a certain minimum NUMBER of people within a quarter mile of a proposed transit stop before AC transit will pony up? If so, what is that number? I really, sincerely would like to know the answer. -If it’s a number that is far greater than the aggregate population that would be planned for under current circumstances, we are warranted in being concerned that development could go forward without a hard and fast transit plan in place.
-We could end up stuck with a lot more people who really don’t have any alternative but to get in their cars.
P.S. My main view here is that, no matter what development model gets implemented out there, a lot more serious attention needs to be paid to including solutions to the bottleneck that is Webster Street during the development planning process. (and please, no gondolas…
Comment by Susan — December 11, 2007 @ 6:47 pm
Susan, you bring up a great point, that it’s about more than just density. It’s as much or more about mixed use (vertical, like Park Street, not horizontal like Alameda Landing). This is the lie that’s put to simplistic answers about a specific density number supporting transit. As if there’s a specific density and things magically appear (”add in 1 more house and we’ll throw in a free shuttle!”
There are guidelines, about 12-15 units per acre will start to support 1/2 hour service (like the line 63, not incredibly usable, but good in a pinch). The numbers go up from there.
You’re correct in thinking that they care about unit within a 1/4 mile radius as well, with denser housing near the stops and less dense housing further away.
Personally, I’m a fan of having two separate conversations, one is about housing numbers, the other about density/design. They don’t have to be linked.
Measure A is not what’s keeping the housing numbers down at the Point. Right now, they could build 12-15,000 homes out there without a density bonus or changing Measure A. It’s the environmental cleanup/mitigation costs that are keeping the numbers down.
The discussion of density can be had with 1000 households (less than currently planned), 1800 households (current PDC) or 7,000 households. The discussion of design and density is not directly connected to the number of houses (though yes, it certainly can be). Let’s figure out the housing numbers, then let’s talk about the design.
And I’m right there with you on the Gondola. Luckily, I don’t think you’ll see that ever again.
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 11, 2007 @ 9:23 pm
JKW - I thought you and the TC were advocating bus stops every 2,000 feet along Alameda’s bus routes. Why is high density housing needed with all the bus stops so spread out?
From the first railroads to modern freeways, development has always followed transportation;
Now you want to reverse the natural order.
In case you’ve not noticed the BA has incredibly full roads - really clogged arterials. You want to develop where vehicle traffic has consumed the available roadways to the point of environmental damage due to inefficiency. Our freeways already become slow moving parking lots full of monoxide spewing machines going nowhere fast. Yet you advocate adding more development to that with the branding of “building green”. That seems to me to be a perverted sense of environmental stewardship.
The major problem with local mass transit is that it is inefficient from a travel time perspective, and it is more costly on a trip by trip basis than one’s own car. And the number of cars per household seems to be increasing.
I would gladly walk a quarter mile or bike a few miles to catch mass transit to work if it was cheaper and nearly as fast as driving. It is neither. It is far cheaper to drive (I don’t have to pay tolls or pay to park), and mass transit takes 3 times as long. (4 times as long if counting the walks on each end)
It appears to me that your solution is to continue development and justify the traffic and environmental nightmares by saying that sooner or later it will be so bad that public transit will be as convenient as personal conveyance.
Achieving that ‘breakpoint’ is no solution. It would be the end game which would be maintained at best. The horrendous pollution and waste of human life time would be such a sad waste.
It seems obvious to me that if mass transit is to be a solution it has to offer a better alternative, but you have stated that control of mass transit is not within the purview of our city’s leaders, staff or commissions. It seems you are selling hope like an olde time snake oile salesman. The scary thing about your appointment to the TC is your willingness to make it harder for cars to move around. Not just by increasing density, as you advocate, but by also closing roads to cars, by creating ‘bus only’ lanes at our busiest sections of roadways, and by reducing the standard levels of service for our roads.
To me you do not seem to be looking to improve conditions of transportation, but rather seek to disrupt, reduce or destroy the level of service Alamedans have had for getting around in our cars.
And you certainly enjoy the support from the pro-development Kool-aid pushers.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 12, 2007 @ 10:19 pm
#103
JKW is not the devil. He simply has a different perspective than you.
Comment by Alameda NayTiff — December 13, 2007 @ 6:19 am
I heartily concur.
To the topic at hand:
John/#100 remarked “…south, due to the sprawling development we’ve encouraged over the past 50 years is not a “place” but a multitude of places making transit solutions more difficult to implement.”
I have always wondered whether car ferry service between Alameda/Jack London Square and the South Bay could be a commercially viable option. It seems to work up in Seattle. When I was growing up, we were regulars on the Galveston car ferry, and I believe it is still well-used, even though there is a bridge in place now.
http://www.ahherald.com/ferry/2004/fr040415_growth.htm
Comment by Susan — December 13, 2007 @ 7:31 am
Please let JKW answer the questions instead of you falsely alleging that I made allegations of jkw and satanic characterization.
Comment by David Kirwin — December 13, 2007 @ 10:13 am
That’s funny, there appears to be only one question in comment #103; the rest is just a series of statements and accusations.
To answer the lone question, though, the Transportation Commission recommended adoption of AC Transit’s standards for local bus stop spacing, which call for a spacing ranging from 800 to 1,300 feet, depending on the circumstances.
Regardless of the specific numbers, however, there is no simple relationship between bus stop spacing and density. A bus rapid transit line might have widely spaced “stations” instead of ordinary bus stops, much like a light rail system. The longer spacing between station stops would not preclude having some sort of dense development within walking distance of each station. Conversely, one often finds local bus or streetcar service with frequent stops in densely populated areas. The appropriate spacing depends on a number of factors besides density.
As for the rest of the statements and allegations, my lack of response does not indicate agreement, but rather a lack of time and interest in an argument that will lead nowhere. Mr. Kirwin is convinced that John Knox White and his Kool-Aid-pushing minions (or are they his cohort? his ilk, perhaps?) intend to destroy Our Fair City’s transportation system, and if my experience in this forum is any guide, no so-called facts from quote-unquote experts are going to change his mind.
Comment by Michael Krueger — December 13, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
Suasn,
I think the ferry question is an interesting point. I did a little digging (emphasis on little).
The San Francisco Bay Area Water Transit Authority (WTA) has proposed routes (these will more or less be the same people with a different governing board in the WETA). I don’t know and I am skeptical that they are car ferries like in the Puget Sound area. They have a route down to Redwood City, but nothing further than that.
One thought is that the Bay is not very deep and fully loaded ferries in the Washington State Ferry System draught at about 7 feet. Which would be really cutting it close in a lot of the bay (I’m sure they must have minimum clearances for these things). The USGS has maps of the bay that indicate that the depth is 6-18 meters for the trip from BFI to Redwood City and that Redwood City would be the Southiest you could get to without dredging.
A question would be, would Alameda have the ridership to support such a service or would they be able to attract enough non-Alameda riders to make it work (I don’t have a clue).
Comment by johnknoxwhite — December 13, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
JKW – Below is a partial list of short questions that are relevant to transportation concerns in Alameda. As chair of the TC it is important for residents to know where you and your fellow members of the board stand on these issues. You and Mr Kruger seem to be in lockstep with you comments. Because you are so outspoken I have hazard guesses to what your opinions are on these questions, but please explain your views. Although we seem to have very different hopes and goals for Alameda, I obviously know you are not the devil, I am not disrespecting you; I am simply and publicly asking you to inform readers the direction and reasoning for your actions as chair of the city commission you participate on. I encourage you to read all the questions before answering, not to jump to conclusions with curt answers.
You and the Transportation Commission recommended adoption of AC Transit’s standards for local bus stop spacing, which call for a spacing ranging from 800 to 1,300 feet, depending on the circumstances:
1. Why is high density housing needed with all the bus stops so spread out? (?)
2. Isn’t BRT (Bus Rapid Transit) just a play on words for “express busses”? (of course, it’s a form of ‘advertising’.)
For many years I was exclusively a bus rider – I even sold my car. Santa Cruz Metro was excellent and had dedicated ridership. They had low fares, and I bet their fare box paid a higher % of costs than AC Transit. In the 80’s monthly passes were $20. A round trip to town at that time was almost $5 in gas (from the Ben Lomand/Boulder Creek area). The bus was a great deal. The Metro ran express busses from hub to hub. The Metro depot was the busiest hub, and there were usually 6 -12 busses arriving, loading or leaving. The ‘Depot’ as redesigned after the ‘quake had a juice bar, Santa Cruz coffee shop, a flower shop, and more, and, it was located right on Pacific Garden Mall – the commercial center of the city. The other “hubs” were at other commercial mainstays – the Capitola Mall, a shopping center in Watsonville, Mt Herman Shopping Center to name some. The hubs were not the only place to hop on transfer busses, but they were central crossroads for many local routes.
My point is that hubs were commercial centers; local buses served the meandering residential routes.
3. Why do you think neighborhoods should be ‘transit hubs’? (?)
4. Within our city, are you using the term “transit hub” to mean ‘major’ bus stop?(yup)
5. Would Alameda City “transit hubs” be served by numerous bus routes – both regional and local routes? (nope)Or;
6. Are you, TC and HOMES just using “transit hubs” because it is a ‘catchy’ phrase instead of ‘high density bus stop’? (Duh)
Part of the reason I was so committed to the Santa Cruz busses was the fact that the region ‘sprawled’. The distances helped the economics of ridership, both in time and ‘bus vs. personal auto’ fuel cost.
7. With the limited empowerment to affect decisions of AC Transit, what do you and the Alameda Transportation Commission see as possible ways to make busses more appealing to our residents? (see below)
8. Have you advocated adding lanes to widen Alameda Streets?(no)
9. Have you advocated for ‘bus-only’ lanes without the addition of a new lane on any of our roadways? (yes)
10. Have you advocated narrowing any Alameda Streets? (yes)
11. Have you noticed the BA has incredibly full roads - really clogged arterials?
12. Do you advocate higher density development in these areas where vehicle traffic has consumed the available roadways to the point of environmental damage due to inefficiency? Our freeways already become slow moving parking lots full of monoxide spewing machines going nowhere fast. (yes)
13. Is adding to this environmental problem part of your “green-based” solution? (yes)
14. How is your transportation solution different from: “…to continue development and justify the traffic and environmental nightmares by saying that sooner or later it will be so bad that public transit will be a reasonable alternative to personal conveyance in terms of cost and time?” (?)
15. Isn’t it true that the number of cars per household seems to be increasing, and that without further development in Alameda, traffic is destined to become worse? (yes)
16. Did you and the TC and city staff reduce or advocate for the reducing of the standard levels of service (LOS) for our roads; that increase the permitted length of delay permitted to achieve each of the LOS grades? (yes)
17. Can you describe those LOS grades? (New vs. old?) (?)
18. Why do you think the TC was named the Transportation Commission and not the Transit Commission?
Comment by David Kirwin — December 13, 2007 @ 7:58 pm
# 108
“A question would be,…”
The answer to the question (though nobody’s dumb enough to ask it), would Alameda have the ridership to support it…is, duh duh…ha, not in this life time. But go a little further north from the Puget Sound, up to Vancouver BC. There, you’ll find a plethora of water and surface public transportation. From the little Grandville Island water taxis on one side to the Seabus next to Canada Place on the other side of downtown. There’s the Skytrain, West Coast Express and regular surface buses and private autos all over the place.
The strange thing about downtown Vancouver BC is, in many ways, it’s similar but opposite to Alameda. The size is similar and the population is roughly the same averaged out between residents and weekday commuters. What’s strange is it’s opposite in what it’s doing compared to Alameda. VC is a commercial downtown trying to draw residents that will live and work in the already established businesses, while Alameda is…?
VC is building a circular wall of twenty to thirty storied, high density apartment buildings that will ring the downtown water’s edge . They hope to increase permanent downtown resident population by forty thousand when the ring is finished. VC is a vibrant active fun place. Alameda is…is…wait, just what is Alameda and what is it doing? Alameda is anti business anti growth anti-anti and, well you name it we